doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Damascus explained

I'm re-posting the Keith Kearcher refinished late 1880s Greener G60 which might be 'Silver Steel' (courtesy of Doug Craig)



The difference between Damascus and Laminated is:
1. Higher steel content
2. Better quality steel
3. Fewer twists of the rods
4. The steel and iron is mixed together in a "bloom" which is then welded, pounded, and rolled into rods. The rods are then twisted and wrapped around a mandrel like damascus. Damascus, however, starts with separate thin strips of iron and steel which are twisted and welded together.

The usual laminated pattern is, therefore, an irregular mosaic of iron (black) and steel (silver)



BUT might have a distinctly 'herring-bone' linear pattern

c. 1860s W&C Scott

OK all you right-brain challenged philistines. I believe it was rabbit who volunteered to have a gin or five and provide an official determination as to the connection between Arabesque and Damascus steel.

From Ernst Kuhnel The Arabesque; Meaning and Transformation of an Ornament, 1949. Translation by Richard Ettinghausen, 1977

"Although it was the Arabs who invented the motif and fixed its image, Muslim artists of all tongues, Iranians, Turks, Indians and Berbers used the arabesque and provided new variants. At times, Western draughtsmen were also unable to escape the charm of these strange patterns, which for a while even turned into a European fashion.
As in the case of other scrollwork, the arabesque, too, consists essentially of stem and leaf. However, while the botanical identity of the grapevine or acanthus is more or less reserved in whatever application it might be found, there is no such organic connection in the case of the unnatural, bifurcated form of the arabesque. It can present itself as being squat or stilted, compact or loosely composed, smooth or with a rough surface, ribbed, feathered, or pierced, painted, round or convoluted, simply outlined or with a spirited contour…serial arrangement with mirror images or upside-down repetitions, the creation of calyx or palmette forms by means of reciprocal duplication, the articulation through geometric strapwork or through cartouches and medallions.
One of the main applications of the arabesque was its combination with epigraphy. In the whole Islamic world, the preferred decoration of buildings and objects was the written, pious phrase and the surprising wealth of resulting calligraphic is well known…inscriptions were usually bedded on a ground of bifurcating scrolls…"

c. 10th century fresco from a temple in Murtuq, Turfan region, Turkestan with a "Horse-shoe" pattern



13th century wood carving from the Mausoleum of the Imam Shafi'i in Cairo, Egypt with a "Crolle" pattern



jOe-doncha see it!?!

nOpe...

This help?

Doc-

Not everyone will see, or will admit to seeing, what you see (I do by the way). You could be totally wrong. In the study of history and the study of other human events, one learns that just as it is difficult to know cause and effect the instant a thing happen, it can be equally, if not more difficult to know this upon reflection. E.g., we struggle to understand the recent history of powered flight (who did or who copied what.)

But the evidence is piling up in favor of the connections you are making between non-European (much less non-English) influences in the patterns/motifs, and perhaps even in the technology and there has been very little evidence to suggest otherwise.


Doug

revdocdrew:

I don't know if I totally agree with the difference. I don't think that the iron & steel is mixed before being fused and experiencing the 3 ton forge hammer for the Laminated. It is the steel only, from mild steel parts, that is fused. I believe the alternating rods or steel and iron are later. The steel is made from the bloom.

The main difference in Laminated & Damascus is the quality of steel, as you stated & the number of flat bars from the twisted rope lathe. Before the Laminated barrel can be made "The gun-iron makers not get a long strip of mild steel the thickness required, and then a bar of superior iron the same size;.." Also, Laminated is made from 2 rods "with the inclinations of the twist running in opposite directions." And Damascus is composed of 3 rods.

It seems that the definition of Laminated & Damacus change as time marches on; therefore, the definition of Laminated & Damascus will be time varying. I believe that iron starts out as a major percentage and steel lands up being higher later on. Also the rods or iron & steel are different sizes & shapes. In Greener's 9th edition, he mentions old and new laminated.

All above from Greener's books.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

dOc I'm left handed and I still can't see the conection in the patterns....might have to get me a Hemp rugg and study up.

Raimey-you may be correct, and both Greeners confuse me by mixing the names of the different barrel material. In The Gun, or a Treatise on the Various Descriptions of Small Fire-Arms 1st Edition 1835 W. Greener discusses the manufacture of
Stub-Twist Iron on p. 24
(Steel and iron)...after being properly mixed together, they are put into an air furnace and heated to a state of fusion, in which state they are stirred up by a bar of the same mixture of iron and steel, until by their adhesion they form a ball of apparently melting metal. During this process the bar has become sufficiently heated to attach itself to the burning mass, technically called a bloom of iron...By this mode of manufacturing, the iron and steel are so intimately united and blended...
He also described the bloom in reference to Mr Wiswould’s Iron Barrels and Silver Steel.
In The Science of Gunnery, as Applied to the Use and Construction of Fire-Arms, 1841, He discusses the "bloom" again on p. 98 & 109.
On p. 154 of Gunnery in 1858: Being a Treatise on Rifles, Cannon, and Sporting Arms, he discusses Silver Steel and common Twist Steel (though at other places uses the term 'Silver Damascus'), states "I make my own laminated steel" (is it Silver steel?) then discusses the bloom mentioning ONLY steel and no iron?!
On p. 167, he seems to be promoting some (his?) superior barrel material. "The mixture of a portion of steel with the stubs having clearly shown an improvement...we have had as high as 3/4 of steel to 1 of iron. Where proper attention is paid to the clipping of the steel to pieces, corresponding with the stubs, and properly mixing the whole, welding and forging by the heavy hammer, reducing by a tilt and rolling down to the smallest description of rod, a most excellent, tenacious, and dense body of iron is thus obtained."
I remain confused

I did so offer. Headache gone; tux at the cleaners; late nite coffer jitters. I loved the thought from Doc that the process that produces the purely aesthetic (if there is such a thing) may LATER be found to be a process that provides desirable characteristics of the engineering kind. Hadn't thought that way myself; thought you get the surface look from a process as a manipulatible by-product but still just a byproduct (cf. color-producing case hardening). I think the vinings and branchings and twistings of the "organic" seen in the arabesque borders are a celebratory rendering of the sinuous, bending, pliant and resilient strength of of the plant kingdom and also of the wonderfully useful things that are made by processes imitative of "natural" growth: weaving, twisting, bundling. Now Joe, I'm just trying to make this here hemp into rope--not smoke it so don't get your knickers in a twist. I don't know that Doc's view of things even differs much from the R&D approach of Tom Edison or Uncle Dupee's flubber mixers. Sometimes you get the stuff right off the vine, sometimes you imitate the vine to make the stuff (molecular chemistry), and sometimes you make some superstuff that you don't know what for until the invention mothers necessity. Doc, you must have loved that PBS series "Connections" a few years back.

jack

revdocdrew:

Confused I am and the more I read the more confusion there seems to be on the surface. So, as you have stated depending on which Greener & which book the terms "damascus", "iron", "laminated" & "steel" seem to have varying definitions. It is probably due to changes in barrel technology and their desire to sell barrels and guns. W. or W.W. Greener both would have made fine politician, speech stumpers and the like, if they weren't already.
If you get a chance look the definition of laminated in "Modern Breech-Loaders: Sporting & Military and add it to the mix. Is there anyone around that knows how the rods were to be combined to achieve a desired pattern? Or are there recipes stashed somewere in archives.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse