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#617627 08/03/22 11:46 PM
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Who is fabulous at raising dents in barrels? I have a subtle dent in a sxs barrel I would like removed.


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Jon Hosford

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Thanks!


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JNW #617693 08/04/22 07:32 PM
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Mark, I have successfully removed a few dents myself over the years with bore plugs and a tiny brass hammer. But, I never could successfully hide the raised dent with "after-bluing". It always showed, in a lighter coloration, even tho' raised. Can Jon hide the repair by blending the bluing?


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Stan;

Sometimes I use fairly thick "freeze bag" type plastic to place between the barrel outside surface and the hammer. This helps in limiting the blemish of hammering the barrel with hammering against polished bore plugs. Of course you only get a tap or two with the hammer against the freezer bag plastic before you need to move a un-hammered section of the plastic under the hammer.

JNW #617705 08/05/22 07:03 AM
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I tried several things, Stephen, to accomplish that same thing before stumbling upon HVAC adhesive aluminum tape (.003" thick). It lasts a good while before needing changing but, I still can see a small lighter colored area of bluing where the dent was actually raised. It's not terrible, but noticeable. Keith Kearcher raised some dents in a Fox BE for me years ago, before I learned to do it myself. He raised the dents, but only gave them a lick and a promise in attempting to recolor the areas. They had acquired that brownish patina, and the areas he dealt with stand out like a sore thumb now. I'll likely let Breck refinish them to the original Fox blue of that era.


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JNW #617882 08/09/22 12:55 AM
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I'm kinda glad to see this thread go a bit off-topic by going from who does dent raising to some tips for those who choose to raise their own.

Once you learn how, it is a pretty easy and satisfying amateur gunsmithing job. The investment in tools isn't much, although it wouldn't be economical to buy the stuff to only raise one or two. However, I don't know what the pros are charging for a nice dent raising job these days. Joe Biden inflation is likely increasing gunsmithing costs too. I made some expanding mandrels, and also use plug gauges as mandrels.

Stan, I did make a couple nice small brass hammers that I have used to raise dents. But the one I like best is a small hammer with hard plastic replaceable tips. I paid a whole dollar for it at a swap meet. I think it does a much better job on most dents, although it takes more hammer blows (light taps really) than the slightly heavier brass hammers. The best part for me is that it does a better job of bringing a dent up with minimal, or no marring of the barrel finish. I use it for nothing else but dent raising, to ensure there is no grit or debris embedded in the plastic tips. I often use just a bit of Saran wrap, packing tape, or plain printer paper to help protect the blued surface of a barrel that I don't wish to reblue after dent raising. I'll have to try the aluminum HVAC tape, since I already have a couple rolls. I have done spot bluing touch-ups a few times, when minor striking is necessary. But as you say, it can be tough to match and blend in. I think the hardest part is to match the same level of polish as the rest of the barrel, to make the repaired area less likely to stand out. A spot which is too shiny or too dull seems more evident than a slight color variation.


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I use a copper hammer, softer than brass but hard enough to do the job nicely.

It is pretty easy to blend the color out on a set of barrels that has a nice blue on it and no polish required around the removed dent. It is much harder to pull off if the tubes have some patina and wear to them. When required, I usually apply acid to the area I worked a several times to get the color close, then a few passes over everything and then things tend to blend together very nicely.

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JNW #617915 08/09/22 08:43 PM
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Thanks Keith, and Steve.

Good tips.


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SKB #617918 08/10/22 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by SKB
When required, I usually apply acid to the area I worked a several times to get the color close, then a few passes over everything and then things tend to blend together very nicely.

For most of us, acid is a very good bluing remover....


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JNW #617938 08/10/22 06:33 PM
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and for some of us, acid is a rust bluing solution.

Hope you have been well Bill.

All my best,
Steve


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Originally Posted by SKB
and for some of us, acid is a rust bluing solution.

Hope you have been well Bill.

All my best,
Steve

I have been well Stevie... thank you for your most sincere good wishes.

I'd be even better if you could share with us what acid you use for a rust bluing solution. I am aware that most rust bluing solutions contain one or more acids, in addition to several other ingredients. But none I know of is straight undiluted acid; not those in Angier's book, or anywhere else I've seen a formula. And I've researched and tried a lot of rust bluing and browning formulas until our friend Doug Woodin (PA24) shared his formula with me.

The very first rust bluing formula I ever used was a mixture of 60 cc of concentrated Nitric acid, and 40 cc of concentrated Hydrochloric acid. In this, I dissolved all the degreased wire nails it would consume in a ceramic crucible. After all of the violent bubbling and fuming subsided, I decanted the liquid, and diluted it with 1000 cc of distilled water. The resulting solution rusted my highly polished parts very quickly, and took around 8 or 10 rusting, boiling, and carding cycles. By the time they were a nice deep blue-black, I was also left with a matte finish because it was too aggressive. Even though my acids had consumed all those iron nails, and then was diluted over 10:1 with water, I should have diluted it quite a bit more, and kept my rusting cycles shorter. It looked nice, and was very durable, but it was not as glossy as I had hoped for.

Even when I use acid to remove rust or old blue, I find it needs to be a rather dilute solution, or it will etch the steel. Common white vinegar removes blue quite well, and it is only about 4 to 8% acetic acid. That's why I am curious about what acid would make a good rust bluing solution, and not remove the finish as fast as it was formed???


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Hi Bill,
Try Pilkington's solution for rust blue, it works very well. You are correct, shorter cycles lead to a higher luster blue. You can try skipping the rusting cabinet as well. I finds this really helps when going for a high luster blue.

I make my own browning solutions out of Angier's and I find many of his solutions to be too strong for my liking. I end up reducing them by at least 50%, often much more as I get closer to finishing up.

I do not chemically remove bluing myself but hand polish everything.

All my best,
Steve

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I have a pretty sophisticated bluing cabinet it controls heat and humidity by using a boiler/heated water tank I have used Pilkington brownells and laurel MT. I do cut the laurel in half with water .and I use small hard nylon plastic hammer for dent removal I have a hydrolic dent raiser but I have also turned slugs of various diamiter to remove dents.Mark Cooper

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Just curious, Keith and Mark, when you use a hard nylon hammer (instead of brass) do you still need to use something like the HVAC tape over it to protect the barrel finish?


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I don't but most of the barrels I was repairing were going to get reblued anyway I used the 12 ga hydrolic dent raiser with the nylon plastic hammer I have had some dents come out pretty easy dome not so much

keith #618016 08/12/22 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by keith
Originally Posted by SKB
and for some of us, acid is a rust bluing solution.

Hope you have been well Bill.

All my best,
Steve

I have been well Stevie... thank you for your most sincere good wishes.

I'd be even better if you could share with us what acid you use for a rust bluing solution. I am aware that most rust bluing solutions contain one or more acids, in addition to several other ingredients. But none I know of is straight undiluted acid; not those in Angier's book, or anywhere else I've seen a formula. And I've researched and tried a lot of rust bluing and browning formulas until our friend Doug Woodin (PA24) shared his formula with me.

The very first rust bluing formula I ever used was a mixture of 60 cc of concentrated Nitric acid, and 40 cc of concentrated Hydrochloric acid. In this, I dissolved all the degreased wire nails it would consume in a ceramic crucible. After all of the violent bubbling and fuming subsided, I decanted the liquid, and diluted it with 1000 cc of distilled water. The resulting solution rusted my highly polished parts very quickly, and took around 8 or 10 rusting, boiling, and carding cycles. By the time they were a nice deep blue-black, I was also left with a matte finish because it was too aggressive. Even though my acids had consumed all those iron nails, and then was diluted over 10:1 with water, I should have diluted it quite a bit more, and kept my rusting cycles shorter. It looked nice, and was very durable, but it was not as glossy as I had hoped for.

Even when I use acid to remove rust or old blue, I find it needs to be a rather dilute solution, or it will etch the steel. Common white vinegar removes blue quite well, and it is only about 4 to 8% acetic acid. That's why I am curious about what acid would make a good rust bluing solution, and not remove the finish as fast as it was formed???

I have used that formula, or a similar version of it anyway. The “Zischang” formula. I use it full strength, and absolutely LOVE the results, especially when doing Damascus browning.
I personally have had pretty good results using formulas with either nitric or hydrochloric in them and haven’t experienced the “over etching” effect that some others do.
I think my solutions containing acids in them produce a pretty glossy, shiny, sheeny finish or whatever word is appropriate. That’s probably the result of some other tricks of the trade I’ve picked up, but I digress.
I have experienced a side effect while testing a couple of different formulas containing higher amounts of acids….the blacking will sometimes will take on a dark grayish appearance. It’s not unattractive…. Especially if used on some older antique military type guns…It just doesn’t look quite right on a double gun.

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I use a formula that I slightly modified out of Angier's and it has Nitric acid as well as Ferric Chloride for Browning. A deeper bite than I like when used straight but I have no issues with it all when reduced. I love the color it gives, a deep rich brown with slight reddish overtones. I tend to reduce the strength of the solution as I get closer to finishing up with damascus tubes. On steel tubes I use Pilkington's straight but short cycles and I am extra careful if the room temperature is over about 65 degrees, which is not too often in my bluing room, only in the summer really.

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How many passes at 65 degrees? And how long between cycles?

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I tend to run 10-12 passes and let them rust no more than 2 hrs, a bit less time at 65 degrees, maybe an hour or a little more. I like that greenish color before the oxide begins to turn orange.

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Steve,do you boil and card between cycles?

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I do boil and hand card between each cycle.


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I have to blue a few barrels I'm going to see what happens if I boil and card before orange color shows up in my rust cabinate it converts really quickly .the reason I asked about boiling and carding a guy I know would rust card and rust again for 6 to 10 cycles then boil his bluing looked great I don't remember what he used. Mark

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For blacking I rarely go past 6 cycles, maybe 8. Rust times are 1 hour at 90°and 60% humidity. Damascus barrels take a little bit more time. I normally hand card, but gave a carding wheel a try this last time and it worked pretty well (I can’t tell a difference in the finish vs. my usual hand carding). It cut the carding time down significantly, (5 to 10 minutes of hand carding vs. like a minute or two with the wheel and I’m done.)
Like Steve….I rarely ever see or get to the point of orange or red rust….in fact most of time the rust is a grayish green color, sometimes you can’t even see that….but after about 6 minutes in the boiling tank, they start turning jet black. I boil for a full 10 minutes to ensure full conversion.

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I use a carding wheel, in my bluing cabinate it can convert really quickly I wanted to see if anyone has tried rusting carding then boiling after a number of passes mabey I'll give it a try see what happens.mark

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Originally Posted by LeFusil
For blacking I rarely go past 6 cycles, maybe 8. Rust times are 1 hour at 90°and 60% humidity. Damascus barrels take a little bit more time. I normally hand card, but gave a carding wheel a try this last time and it worked pretty well (I can’t tell a difference in the finish vs. my usual hand carding). It cut the carding time down significantly, (5 to 10 minutes of hand carding vs. like a minute or two with the wheel and I’m done.)
Like Steve….I rarely ever see or get to the point of orange or red rust….in fact most of time the rust is a grayish green color, sometimes you can’t even see that….but after about 6 minutes in the boiling tank, they start turning jet black. I boil for a full 10 minutes to ensure full conversion.

I have seen LeFusil's barrel blacking and barrel browning work----- he is getting excellent results; and he is well on his way to in the future being able to duplicate the best London barrel blacking.

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bushveld #618077 08/13/22 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bushveld
Originally Posted by LeFusil
For blacking I rarely go past 6 cycles, maybe 8. Rust times are 1 hour at 90°and 60% humidity. Damascus barrels take a little bit more time. I normally hand card, but gave a carding wheel a try this last time and it worked pretty well (I can’t tell a difference in the finish vs. my usual hand carding). It cut the carding time down significantly, (5 to 10 minutes of hand carding vs. like a minute or two with the wheel and I’m done.)
Like Steve….I rarely ever see or get to the point of orange or red rust….in fact most of time the rust is a grayish green color, sometimes you can’t even see that….but after about 6 minutes in the boiling tank, they start turning jet black. I boil for a full 10 minutes to ensure full conversion.

I have seen LeFusil's barrel blacking and barrel browning work----- he is getting excellent results; and he is well on his way to in the future being able to duplicate the best London barrel blacking.


Goodness! High praise indeed! Thank you Stephen, as you know, I couldn’t have gotten to this point without your fantastic help, encouragement and time. Thanks again!!

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I don't let a heavy orange or red covering of rust appear on the bbls or parts before boiling.
It's not necessary.
It will of course produce a rust blue.
But for a layer or cycle to produce color after boiling, it's not necessary for that heavy accumulation.

I don't let the parts rust very long and like Lefusil states you can barely see the rust sometimes and they are ready for the boiling water.
The place where I hang bbls and parts is kind of dark, so I generally judge them as being ready (or not) by very gently dragging my finger tips down the surface.
If I can feel the drag of a coating formed,,they are ready. Feels about like a new piece of 800grit paper you are touching.

I know that goes against all the 'Don't ever touch the parts' advise. But I've been able to do that w/o any problem.
Dry hands,,what ever. I don't do any other handling of the parts during the process w/o wooden attachments or metal hangers.
Just that one very gentle touch to check if they are ready.

I think a lot of people assume the heavy rusting coat is necessary for rust bluing. Maybe that comes from seeing it used to do rust browning on Muzzle Loader bbls and parts.
They usually let them rust up pretty good. Seems like More is Gooder in that area.
If you want the matted look that's OK too. Sometimes it fits the piece being redone.
But it's not a necessity for a layer of color.

Express Rust Bluing , each swabbed on coating of soln produces an extremely thin layer of instant Rust. That in turn produces Blueing color just fine with every boiling cycle.
Why would there be a need for heavy rusting when doing Cold Rust Blue.

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Originally Posted by Kutter
I don't let a heavy orange or red covering of rust appear on the bbls or parts before boiling.
It's not necessary.
It will of course produce a rust blue.
But for a layer or cycle to produce color after boiling, it's not necessary for that heavy accumulation.

I don't let the parts rust very long and like Lefusil states you can barely see the rust sometimes and they are ready for the boiling water.
The place where I hang bbls and parts is kind of dark, so I generally judge them as being ready (or not) by very gently dragging my finger tips down the surface.
If I can feel the drag of a coating formed,,they are ready. Feels about like a new piece of 800grit paper you are touching.

I know that goes against all the 'Don't ever touch the parts' advise. But I've been able to do that w/o any problem.
Dry hands,,what ever. I don't do any other handling of the parts during the process w/o wooden attachments or metal hangers.
Just that one very gentle touch to check if they are ready.

I think a lot of people assume the heavy rusting coat is necessary for rust bluing. Maybe that comes from seeing it used to do rust browning on Muzzle Loader bbls and parts.
They usually let them rust up pretty good. Seems like More is Gooder in that area.
If you want the matted look that's OK too. Sometimes it fits the piece being redone.
But it's not a necessity for a layer of color.

Express Rust Bluing , each swabbed on coating of soln produces an extremely thin layer of instant Rust. That in turn produces Blueing color just fine with every boiling cycle.
Why would there be a need for heavy rusting when doing Cold Rust Blue.

Hello, Kutter;

Interesting statement that you made above about "don't ever touch the parts" and it caused me to think about Robin Brown and his video on color case hardening. Months ago when I first watched Robin's video, the single most interesting point of that video was after Robin ultrasonic cleaned the action and all it's parts, he then placed said parts into the crucible with his bare hands. Robin knows what to touch and what not to touch and when.

In the processes of color case hardening and rust blacking it became evident to me years ago that the most important component of these processes was technique and that technique was gained by years of experience. Of course, in the case of obtaining the famous "London style" gloss barrel blacking, the blacking solution formula is important. However, to my mind the technique is the most important or how else could several different barrel blackers in the UK get such glorious color and gloss from their work---all using their own formulas. 20 years ago I was visiting gun trade workshops at Price Street, Birmingham, England and went upstairs above the old Benj Wild shop and the barrel blacker let me watch him do some barrel blacking work---there was nothing about it that one would classify as clean and orderly as he took the barrels from the boiling water and "slung" the excess water from them against the nearly two hundred year old wooden workshop floor. But the results that he got from the entire process was the proof in the pudding. He knew what to touch and what not to touch and when and he also knew how long to let the pudding cook so to speak for best results.

Last edited by bushveld; 08/15/22 11:20 AM.
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How did the Rust blue go Mark?


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Unfortunately I have had to go out of town down to the valley quite a bit I hope to blue some barrels this week

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I use a fender hammer with a large round head, it is made of steel and with a little heat on the barrel I have never hurt the finish on any barrel. Needless to say these are all 100+ year old guns but still no markings or discoloration. I've tried hard plastic heads and I don't have the patience. Brass is fine but the fender hammer is my choice. Harbor Freight.


David


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