doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Status of RST Shot Shells

I’ve been away from things for a number of years. The last time I bought shells from them, they came in plain white boxes with black printing. This was somewhere around the mid-90s. Supplies are obviously scarce on all things shooting. I found a small rural hardware store that had about a case of assorted 12ga 2 1/2” I purchased what they had. Looking on the RST website, I see they are not taking back orders. Their FB page is pretty sparse as well.

Does anyone know if they are still planning on resuming production at some point or is this yet another casualty of the past 2 years?

I got a call from them a couple of weeks ago. Hopeful for some 12’s. 16’s not so much

That’s a bit encouraging at least. For the amount I plan on shooting my 16, I should be fine for the time being. I was beyond lucky to stumble upon the 12s. Nice little local hardware store. Owner said he bought out the supply of another store that was going out of business. Lots of oddball stuff...25-20, metric calibers, etc. I don’t think they really knew what they had. I’m sure he looked at them, said “these are odd too”, stuck another buck onto the price and rolled with it. I can’t even get a box of Rio trap loads at Sheels for what these cost me. I justified with the wife by saying “We’d have a better chance of Bigfoot stopping by for a beer tonight.”

They were at the NE SXS. Limited amount of shells and as such they were only selling 3 boxes at a time. They had zero 10 gauge and a fair bit of 12 gauge. 16 gauge was in really short supply. FWIW, they were charging $20 per box which is highest they had ever charged. Reason pretty simple. Every component costs much more then it used to. FWIW, the only 16 gauge they had were the 7/8 oz loads. They use the same powder for the 16 gauge as they do for the 12 gauge and since most folks need 12 gauge that is their main focus.

My LGS in Atlanta has at least a few boxes of 16 gauge RSTs, at least when I was there a week or two ago. Chuck's Firearms. I have no use for them or I would have bought them.

Sure glad I’ve got thousands of hulls, wads, and primers! Don’t shoot a lot so should last well beyond my time. And a fair number of flats of RST in 16 and 20. Y’all don’t despair, the supply situation will sort itself out—it’s called capitalism.

It’s called voted out of office not capitalism. Step one this year, then total voter retirement in 2024. It will take a couple years to get things more normal after that I’m sure.

They had 20 gauge available several months ago and I bought a flat. They were limiting sales to one flat per customer.

RST has the same problem all shotshell reloaders across the country has. They use the same off the shelf materials we do. Of course they have some connections most of don't , but if it ain't there it ain't there. Until Downrange can get raw materials to make the beloved DR-16 wads all of us 16 ga shooters are up a crick for good light loads. Morris does this because he likes old guns and the folks that shoot them. They will provide what they can with the components they can get.

Morris had plenty of ammunition at the Northeast Shoot at Ernie's. End of story. He couldn't promise ammo for phone orders after the shoot. What a great guy.

This is all encouraging news. Being tuned out of things for several decades and popping back in at what is probably the worst situation since WW2 rationing had me a bit concerned. It sounds like RST is still viable and the owners are juggling the myriad of things thrown at them the best they can. Hopefully I’ll be able to get up to Medford here in a few weeks and see for myself.

Note: NO SHELLS FOR SALE alert included on the material from the Great Northern shoot. I expect that there may be some available, but in very small quantity. And not likely much at all in 2 1/2".

https://mrcsportsmansclub.com/great-northern-side-by-side-classic/

RST limited the shells to 3 boxes per person at the NE SXS until the last day and on that day they would sell you a flat. Prices were $20 per box and no discount for a flat. Everything was in good supply except for 16 gauge 2.5" as they are loaded with the same powder as 12 gauge. The only 16 gauge available was the 7/8 oz load in size 7.5. That's stiff, but the reality is unless you reload you are going to pay it if you want to shoot short chambered guns. PS. I worked the Fox booth this year per the norm. Lots of folks were talking about extending the chambers on the short chambered guns so they could shoot factory 2 3/4" loads. I spoke to one dealer there who measured some Fox guns that had had their chambers extended and they in his opinion were marginal to shoot anything (including RST) out of. In front of the chambers the readings were less then .009. The biggest problems were with gun that had lighter weight barrels installed at the factory (example 4 barrel weight Foxes). Bottom line is if you going to get a classic with the barrel chambers extended get them measured before plucking down your cash.

Do you mean .090 not .009 or did the dealer really say .009? Also where in front of the chambers. start or end of the forcing one, how long was the cone? Not enough infor. to make a logical conclusion.

The poster must mean .090. .009 is slightly thicker than an aluminum can.

I'm going from memory, but didn't Sherman Bell do some test with 2 3/4" shells in 2 1/2' chambers where pressures only went up 500psi ? I would never remove any wall thickness where it's needed the most.

I think the caveat was that the 2 3/4” round had to generate about the same pressure as the 2 1/2” round the gun was designed for. Actual pressure on 2 3/4” ammunition isn’t something that gets a bunch of light shined on it from SAAMI spec manufacturers of same.

I’ve run the lighter version of 2 3/4” Winchester AAs in my 2 1/2” Halifax, damn if I could tell the difference between 2 1/2” RSTs, but, that gun is a brute in barrel construction and muzzle wall thickness. I’m in no hurry to run anything hotter in it.

Best,
Ted

850 BAR is the same whether it’s fired in 2.5” chamber or 2.75” chamber. Lengthened chambers are not a license to shoot anything. Stick to appropriate ammunition. I think everyone here knows this.

I hear it's Putin's fault we can't get 2 1/2" shells

About 81 million voters are apparently stupid enough to believe that. Don’t hear them crowing about much at the moment, however, which, is a good thing.

Good luck.

Best,
Ted

I was at Ernies talking to one of the guys at RST's tent and asked why no 10 gauge. Was told there were no wads available, but they had all the other components. I don't know whose wad they use but I load 10 gauge and am getting low on Remington SP 10's. The only 10 gauge wads available right now is card and fiber. Heard that Remington will be making more Sp 10's after some of their shortages are taken care of, but who knows when. So I e-mailed Claybuster and asked them to consider making an SP 10 clone. I got a nice reply thanking me for my interest but they are not adding any new items to their product line however they are adding my request to the list. Wonder what would happen if RST contacted them??

Jack K

Sorry, you are correct. In front of the lengthened chambers measurements were in the .085 range.

.085" is plenty of wall thickness at the juncture of the chamber/cone IMO.

I have a 16 gauge Parker with Damascus barrels that Dr. Gaddy measured at .067" and .065" and he pronounced them safe to shoot under 7,500 psi loads... and I have shot it a lot.

I don't believe the issue is for those who routinely shoot and reload their own ammo unless its an accidental double charge (seen those). However, one pretty well known fellow who does this type work has seen two blown barrels in front of the chambers on Fox 16 gauges after they were extended to 2 3/4". Both of those barrels were in the .085 range. Who knows what they were fed, but accidents do happen. The question will always be when that gun is moved on at some point will someone measure the chambers and see they are 2 3/4" and stuff whatever in there and pull the trigger.

Old post I know.

I have an email into RST because my barrels are marked 65 but chambers are cut to 2.775” inches from the Barrel face to forcing cones. I’ve shot 2 7/8 inch ammo 2.7” OAL to the folded crimp) through it and it doesn’t pattern worth a darn I would assume that’s because when fired the fold crimps are overlapping the forcing cones. After the poor patterns from the RST ammo I only now reload only for my gun. I’ve cut all those same hulls down below where the fold crimp indentions are and use a 4 pin roll crimper. So my OAL length hulls I reload are 2.7” give or take. Short enough not to overlap my forcing cones. Needless to say, my patterns have gotten a lot better because I’m not using too long of a hull now. I wonder if there’s 2 5/8” hulls “ unfolded” are short enough (2.775” or under) so I use them in my gun? I would assume chambers were cut to the same length as recommended ammo lengths back in the day because they fired all brass hulls and eventually paper roll crimps? Sounds like in 1939 Remington invented the star crimp( fold crimp). I would assume chambers were lengthened to accommodate modern star crimps and 2 7/8” chamber detentions were lengthened a good half inch for the fold crimps when they “ un folded” when firing? Anyways, I have 13 number fives and six number sixes still in the factory boxes that I’ll never use. Guess I can either try and trade them for the shorter versions or some brand new 10 gauge hulls? Be ashamed just to rip them open to use them for halls after I paid way over 30 bucks a box plus shipping back in the day when they were available. I look on there and I see they have 2 5/8 inch light loads and not 2 7/8 inch. They also don’t offer lead anymore for some reason. I’m wondering if they only offer 2 5/8” ammo now because they figured out a few years back what I’ve just figured out.

RST does offer 2 7/8" shells and lead. They are out of stock on both, unfortunately.

Yeah, they’ve been out of stock for years

2 1/2 will do fine. Most anything you can shoot from 2 7/8 can be found in 2 1/2

It is ok to shoot shorter shells in longer chambers

I apparently I didn't zero my calipers before I measured the loaded RST factory ammo the other day. The 2 7/8” RST unfired ammo measures 2.405”. I also re measured my chambers and they still are both reading the same as yesterday at 2.775”. So i would say I'm good to go with 2 7/8" factory RST ammo if I want to shoot it up. Well that's good becuase when I loaded up my proven load the other day and used a plastic shot cup instead of a 1/2" nitro card I had just enough hull length left over after shortening them to get a roll crimp. Now I won't have to cut down the current RST hulls that I know they are short enough to clear the forcing cones without any trimming or I'll have to trim off .025" of hull material I'm guessing.

First of all I want everyone to know that I am not being judgmental when I make the following statements. I learned long ago not to rely on someone else to make the cartridges I use. When component supplies were plentiful I would buy lead shot, powder, primers, hulls, wads etc. in bulk. I'm glad I did because I have never been hurting for ammo. I know not everyone reloads but haven't the previous mass shootings and the pandemic made us all realize that supplies for our hobby are often in short supply? Plus, loaded ammo and supplies cost more now. For those who do not know how to reload please learn! It will not only save you money but you will always have what you need to enjoy your hobby. An added bonus is that you can make better ammo than the ammo companies can! I load everything from 8 gauge to .410. many of you might only need one gauge like 12 or 16. If you want to keep it simple just buy a used MEC reloader off of Ebay or an online auction or buy a new one if your pocketbook allows it. You can still find Powder to load low pressure shells and you will never have to buy a box of loaded ammo at ridiculous prices again! Yes, there is an upfront investment in the reloading press but that is a small price to pay to make your own and never run low! Just my two cents worth.

Good call. I’ve been reloading rifle and pistol ammo for over 25 years, but never did shotgun up until a few years ago. Obviously, I’m still massively green at it. It started with this gun and I’ve migrated over to my modern 10 gauge browning gold. But you’re right the whole reason I started with shotgun reloading is because the patterns were super horrible out of the RST ammo. The whole point was I wanted to load ammo loaded with real black powder for it with low pressures so I don’t have to worry about losing eyes and fingers in worrying if someone else didn’t do something right with the ammo they manufactured. I have a really good recipe for this gun with cut down roll crimped plastic hulls. It’s 100 grains of FG and one and 1 5/8 oz number six nickel plated shot. I use a half inch nitro card and just an overshot card. I’m going to eliminate the nitro card and try it with a plastic shot cup and see if I can improve my groups. Yes, I’m aware that plastic will melt in the barrel from the shot cup so I will inspect and clean between every firing. Looking for a good tight turkey load. The nitro card load works just fine. I just want a better pattern.



I’ve tried to square load in it with 4 1/2 grains(116 grains) of DuPont FG and one and 5/8 ounces of NZpI #6’s. It patterns better with a little less powder(100 grains) and also less recoil to boot.

I love the fireballs it makes with black powder that’s for sure!!!



I’ve been using cardboard overshot cards, but I found some plastic clear learning chips at the dollar store the other day that fit perfectly. I figured they’re gonna be more of a waterproof option for turkey hunting, and a little bit more durable to boot. I should’ve used the color other than red. I will next time so I can see inside of the shot cups better. The two on the left are my hand loads next to the factory RST 2 7/8” ammo.



And some with cardboard so cards…



The ones with plastic overshot cards I just loaded a couple days ago. I removed about 13 grains of lead shot and added 13 grains back in my load with BPI original buffer. The load that I didn’t use a nitro card on and instead used a BPI tough wad shot cup that I cut down to 1.458” so it would fit in my load. I can deal with a little plastic to clean out of my barrels. If my pattern greatly improves I’ll probably take them out in the next day or two and pattern them at 25 and 40 yards. That’s the best part about black powder. Is there going to be way less pressure than any smokeless load and it’s pretty much almost full proof to screw up loading with black powder in my opinion.

The point of reloading, at the present, is to have something to shoot in the old guns, not save money. I’m still working with pre-Covid components, so I am saving money, but again, that’s not the point. Since the USA is now the world’s self-appointed policeman, the powder companies could give a rat’s a$$ about the reloader. It takes two 8 lb jugs of ExtraLite to fire one 155mm howitzer shell. Learn to reload, especially 2.5” shells. You won’t regret it.

The reason I started reloading these is not because the lack of ammo, which obviously is the only way you’re going to shoot this thing, is because I wanted a good tight turkey pattern and to take a turkey with it. Well, my bucket list was hit as you can see in the photo above. Still working on and off with loads looking a tighter pattern. It probably the only thing I’ll ever use this gun for. Maybe someday I’ll take it coyote calling to shoot a predator just for giggles. I tried some lead number twos in it but I was less than impressed with same load I used above, but substituted the number twos in the payload. I’m sure with a plastic shot cup and some buffer like I’m doing now with greatly increase the pattern enough to at least try and get a coyote in my lap to drill.



But you’re 100% correct, if you don’t reload, you will not be shooting a gun like this. Especially if RST goes out of business or stops making 10 gauge loads. All I can say is they pattern horribly in my gun so there are no options for me unless I reload for it. I literally only get 17 or 18 pellets at the most on a turkey head target at 25 yards with RST ammo. In #6’s. Number fives are half of that for patterns. I don’t know why but my gun sure doesn’t like that stuff. I barely get a good enough pattern the way it is at 25 yards with a one and five eights and loaded hand loaded using a nitro card. Hopefully the plastic shot cup in buffer is the answer. I’ll find out soon.

Tripple
Check your private messages, when you have a chance.

Like you, I too load black powder for 16, 12, 10, 8, and 4 gauge. I use plastic shot cups for hunting almost exclusively. I can go 15 to 20 shots before I need to clean the plastic out of the barrel. I can testify that plastic definitely patterns better than cardboard and felt wads. Velocity is also more consistent. In a 10 gauge I I have to cut 3/4 of the petals off of the wad to get everything to fit. I load 105 grains of swiss 1 1/2 with #6 and English 7's. That is my go to pheasant load and it drops birds with authority. As an added bonus when you shoot a round of skeet with black powder it wakes your companions right up!

Is there any reason you do not use 3f to save space?

No Need 100 to 110 grains is all you need with 1 1/4 ounce of shot. Besides, FFF comes with more recoil.

3f wont recoil more, if you load to the same velocity.

But whatever works. I remember loading well over 100 grains early on.

When I first started, I tried to square load 4 1/2 drams and 1 5/8 oz of #6’s. I was, and still am, using DuPont FG. 4 1/2 drans which is around 123.75 grains. Basically 27.5 grains per dram. I also tried 116 grains and 100 grains. The hundred grain load definitely patterned the best. I figured out that I found a little heavier on shot than my powder charge. I get better patterns. I might actually get brave enough and try an1 7/8 oz and 2 ounce load with 90/95/ & if it doesn’t feel harsh for recoil I’ll work my way to a 100 grains of FG…some day. I’ve done some reading that there were 2.5 oz loads found in old factory ammo that was pulled down. I need that much of a payload. I’ll shoot my modern 10 and not lose any sleep about it coming apart. I would assume if I go heavier than 1.58 ounces I probably wanna stick to that 90 to 95 grain powder charge to keep pressures down. Comment above I do have double F and triple F I just haven’t tried either of them. I figured they might cause higher pressures and velocities? Still trying to work on a good turkey load and only experimented a few times so I’m gonna stick to my one and 5/8 for a while and see if I can get it to tighten up with a plastic shot cup and buffer first.

I think the reason I stuck with FG is because I read that FFG, FFFG, and FFFG, along with Goex and pyrodex powders causes increased pressures. I was paranoid and wanted to stick with the lowest pressures as possible, since I just started reloading for the gun.

So what is the burn rate for 2F and 3F versus FG? I’m curious if there’s a burn rate chart between these and how much do down load to get the same velocity and pressures between them?

Re caution, especially with older guns . . . I recently acquired an Ithaca Flues Grade 4E 20ga with some unusual features. 24" barrels with a swamped rib and 2 3/4" chambers. I requested a factory letter from the Cody Museum. Barrel length matches the letter. I was hoping that if the gun left the factory with 2 3/4" chambers (sold in Feb 1920) the chamber length would have been noted. 2 1/2" chambers would have been standard on an Ithaca 20 back then. Neither the gun nor the letter is marked 2 3/4", which it measures. Factory chokes are noted as 2 and 4 (F/M) and they measure within those ranges for a 20ga. It's easy to load up light 20ga reloads, but I am somewhat hesitant to do that in modern 2 3/4" hulls. Even though the Claybuster 3/4 oz wads make it easy to load 3/4 oz. I'm thinking about the gun mostly for grouse and woodcock hunting. So far, I've shot it only with RST 2 1/2" shells (including spreaders) which is one way to deal with the tight chokes. It could well be all original, longer chambers and all, making me hesitant to tamper with it.

Comments?

I don't know of such a chart and it would vary from one manufacturer to another. And even between batches to a degree. I would just run them over a chronograph, starting at about 80% of what you are using now.

What are the wall thicknesses ahead of the chamber? That would seem to be critical to know given that you at least suspect the chamber may have been lengthened.

I know from experience when using Swiss powder that 3f has more velocity than 1 or 2f. But because I am using the same grain amount their is a little more recoil. Pressure for black powder isn't an issue as a 10 gauge is only in the 4500 to 5000 psi range. Goex and Elephant powder from my testing has the slowest velocity and also produces the most visible smoke. Old Eynsford and Swiss burn the cleanest and produce the most velocity if that is what you are after.

I have a one pound can of DuPont FG, FFG, FFFG, and FFFFG I ended up with from an estate sale. Been using the FG only so far just because I read it has the lowest pressure rating out of all of them…whether it’s true or not?

I can't entirely agree with that statement. Obviously, you don't reload .410s, if you feel that way.

That's something I need to have done. Right now it's strictly a guessing game on whether Ithaca lengthened the chambers at the buyer's request or whether they were lengthened later on. A whole lot of that happened, as I think we all know, when 2 3/4" became the standard chamber length. And clearly sometimes happened when it shouldn't have.

The terms "Flues" and "2 3/4" chambers" hardly ever go together. Get out your wall thickness gauges.

You’re correct Stan. I don’t load .410 but I do 28 gauge, and there is a substantial savings.

I reload because you can’t buy the ammo. Haven’t seen any black powder 10 gauge ammo since I’ve been on the planet. Same with modern 2 1/2 10 gauge loads. Cooked one up the other day that turned out pretty good actually had cooked up four of them. Three out of 4 loads did halfway decent at 45 yards. I had 151, 159, and 142 hits in a 10” circle at 45 yards. Load was 2.5 oz of buffered of lead #5’s with a BPI tuff wad and 45 grains of lil gun. I experimented with wad slits. The winner imo was 4 slits to the 4th ring down. That was the most even pattern with 151 hits. I loaded up some of the same plastic wads cut short in my old Damascus SXS. The patterned horribly. No plastic fowling and the wads never opened up or looked like they sealed in the bore. I cant get any of the modern manufacturers #5 turkey ammo to shoot this tight. The old federal long discontinued red box NWTF turkey ammo was about the best I could get. Federal roll crimps their current line and left the hulls to long. They won’t cycle in my gun. Winchester #5’s are the only available option in factory loads now…And the only way I can get them is ordering them online and paying shipping by that time. I’m better off to handle it. It’s cheaper and produces patterns with 4 to 5 times the hit count at the same distances. The patterns below are all with the same 45 grains of little gun at 45 yards the top pattern I cut my plastic wads down to the fifth ring the middle pattern I cut down to the fourth ring they both were four slits. I tried one more cut shallow to the third ring down. It backed out the primer and my pattern hit high. I didn’t post that picture because it obviously wasn’t a safe load. It’s amazing how were slits in the same shot cup with the exact same powder charge produced higher pressures I learned something new the other day with that one. The bottom target was with only two slits all the way down to the base of the wad.


I made shot cup cushions out of Felpro cork gaskets. They all stayed inside the shot cups except for the two pedal so I would assume that was a success also with not having any shot still sticking inside of them. This is my first try with a buffered load and cushion shot cups. Like I said, my Damascus try was a complete failure. The patterns were horrible and blew out at 25 yards except for one loaded with one and 5/8 ounce of buffered number six. I ended up with 10 less pellet count versus a non-shot cup load and no buffer. I tried the same load at 40 yards and didn’t even hit the target. The non-shot cup and non-buffer load I would put 18 to 19 pellets on a turkey head at 40 yards. I think my next plan of action is for the Damascus is to take my non-shot cup original original load and just add buffer into it and see if it evens up the patterns or not

Here are my 3.5” loads and recovered 3.5” load wads/shot cups at 45 YARD…










The most even pattern imo…







Here are the shot cups recovered from my Damascus loads. They didn’t even blow the seals out around the bottom, going down the barrels and only two opened up one pedal. I’m guessing they probably snagged going down the barrel? I would say they’re too heavy of a shot cup for that old gun. Either that or the load just doesn’t have enough pressure to blow them open and peel them back, or the barrel inside diameters are too big and not producing a tight seal around the shot cup as it’s going down the bores if I had to guess. The plastic shot cups do look like they have just a little 1/8th of an inch or so of a dirty ring “scrub” towards the base of each of the shot cups where they probably touched the inside of the barrels when going through them. So imo very little contact. It explains why I had zero plastic fowling in my barrels. I wonder if a softer target wad would expand a lot better when firing, get better contact going down the barrel, and intern produce better groups?

You can see where I drew the blue arrow marks. It looks like just that small little ring came in contact with the barrels when going down them. The 2 shot cups on each end of the photo below were the only ones that had a pedal open up. The insides of the old barrels have pits, hills, and valleys so if a pedal could have grabbed along the way causing it to open.



I can save these shot cups were all laying right at the base of my 25 yard target so they had enough energy to get there and either drop right at the base of it or bounce off and fall on the ground within a foot or two of the target.

My 3 1/2 inch loads. I found most of them probably 35 to 40 yards out straight in line with my 45 yard targets.

I didn't know Little Gun could be used for 10 gauge loads. I always thought it was a .410 powder and pistol powder. I find experimenting with loads to be almost as fun as shooting them.

Here’s three videos with two different lil gun loads. Both 2 1/2 ounce and 3 ounce payloads use 45 grains if lil gun. I’m sure I could use a 2 1/2 ounce payload and then added buffer to it but I took out 20 grains of pellets and added 20 grains of buffer back intotneload. If I would’ve left it at 2 1/2 grains I would’ve had pellets sitting just a hair over the top of the BPI tuff wad Shot cup and I wanted to keep it even with the top of the cup. I tried a 3oz load without a cushion wad and buffer. The pattern blew out at 40 yards. I had about 80 hits in a 10” circle at 10 yards. I used a mega metal shot cup, no cushion wad, and no buffer. I’ll stick to 2.5 oz loads since I don’t want shot sitting higher than my shot cup.


[video:youtube][/video]



[video:youtube][/video]


[video:youtube][/video]