doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Iver Johnson Hercules questions

Hello. I bought on old Iver Johnson Hercules some years ago at a gun show. Finally got around to trying it out the other day. Both barrels fired when I pulled the forward trigger. Pulling the trigger on a couple spent shells, showed me that the front trigger has a normal amount resistance to pulling the trigger. The rear trigger has considerably less resistance. It’s more like like the one in my varmint gun, than a shotgun. The gun is in good reasonable condition for its age. Closes tight, doesn’t look like it got dragged down a gravel road, kind of thing. I have done gun repairs before, after finding out complicated it is to do. Not having a lot of luck finding info on this one, tho.
My guess is recoil from the first shot is what set off the second shot, with the light trigger pull. Cleaning and maybe an adjustment is what I likely need.
The gun is stamped with patent dates MAR 16, 1915, APR 27, 1915, on the rib. The only real info I have been able to find is a person claiming the first couple years of production had side plates on the gun (1913-1914), which I appear to have. A bit in the dark about how to safely get the side plates off (remove the screw and tap the gun with a plastic mallet?) and what the trigger assembly itself looks like and how easy it is to work on? Any experiences of someone fixing this sort of problem will be appreciated.
Also, there was mention somewhere about whether it is chambered for 2 ½ or 2 ¾ inch. I shot 2 ¾ shells in the test firing. I don't have any tool for officially measuring that. I can measure with some internal machining tools I have. If the internal diameter in the chamber doesn’t change drastically for the length of a spent 2 ¾ case, can I assume the gun is chambered for 2 ¾ ?

sounds like sear/trigger engagement is worn...

re chamber length, assume nothing...

git gun to doublegun smith for fix and evaluation...some here from canada, maybe?

https://connecticutshotgun.co/professional-shotgun-chamber-length-gauge-with-integral-choke-gauge/

Agree with Ed. Sounds like a sear issue. I'd leave that one to a gunsmith. As for chamber length, if the gun dates back to pre-WW1 years and especially if it's either a 16ga or a 20ga, then it's very likely that the chambers are shorter than 2 3/4". Better chance that it's 2 3/4" if it's a 12. But even then, it might be short chambered. Note that I'm speaking of ORIGINAL chamber length. Quite a few guns that left the factory with short chambers later got 2 3/4" chambers courtesy of a gunsmith.

Oops, forgot to mention it is a 12 gauge.

Would sure like to see some good pictures of the "Sideplated" Iver Johnson.

Had to do some fooling around. Couldn't find info on how to post pics. The third one wouldn't show up for some reason. It was a closer up shot of the plate in the second pic, with Iver Johnson, Arms & Cycle works, and an address for Mass.

Wow, never seen one of those before. How low is the serial number?

So is that a sideplated box lock? It looks like a Crescent at first glance but is not. Interesting to see with one of the side plate off. A lot of lower grade, Belgian box lock doubles, were available with a side plate to dress them up a bit.

The number stamped on the frame underneath the barrels is 181. Haven't removed or disassembled anything. Just took a peek of the open action with my phone flashlight.

I've heard the terms side lock and box lock. But don't have any real understanding of them. This is the first double barrel I have ever had anything to do with.

Sure looks like it has a relationship with the Hopkins & Allen --



Some of the H & A examples have the hammer pin extending through the side plate and on others the side plate covers the end of the hammer pin like the IJ.

That does look a lot like it, doesn't it? How old is that one estimated to be?

On a sidelock the lock mechanism is mounted on the plate as in the L.C. Smith, Baker, Crescent or Meriden --



In a boxlock, the lock mechanism, hammer, sear, mainspring and sear spring are mounted in the frame as in the New Ithaca Double --

That clears things up quite a bit. Thanks

1914 write-up re: the sideplate IJ
https://books.google.com/books?id=tpY7AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA1062&lpg

The sideplated IJ had monobloc barrels and were marked 'Hercules Smokeless' on the rib, with the W.O. Barnes patents March-16-1915 (No. 1,142,934 for the floor plate action) and April-27-1915 (No. 1,137,045) for the lock-up)



Some 1892 Ptd. Pieper Eclipse Gun Co. barrels were marked 'Hercules Compressed Steel'
From L' Armureire Liegeoise W.J. Jeffery & Co. c. 1904-1914 sourced "Herakles (Hercules) Compound Gun Barrel Steel" from Canons Delcour

It may be the IJ 'Hercules' refers to the barrel source?

The Hercules Grade was not introduced until 1924 and so marked on the L barrel

There is an old post from several years ago that has some info on the H&A and Iver Johnson sideplated doubles. As I remember, Mary Johnson (Iver Johnson's widow) bought patent rights to the H&A sideplated double (Model 110) in 1914-15ish. H&A introduded a "new" sideplated double (Model 210) in the 1914 Late Catalog. H&A was very short lived from that point forward. I have witnessed very few of the Iver Johnson side plated examples. W.H. Davenport worked for H&A for many years. Davenport also mfg'd a similar Sideplated double of his own Company.

Only picture of the W.H. Davenport hammerless double I've been able to come up with --

Here it is John
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=426092

Thanks for the google books link, Drew. They claim the plates are 'easily removed', so maybe I'll take a run at getting them off by myself, tomorrow. Hopefully it doesn't turn into a wrestling match...

Take the screw out thread it in the opposite side and wiggle the screw the side plate should move then find an area you can use something to,psh the other plate out go slow so,you don't chip wood

Okay, thanks. There are a few gouge marks in the stock already from what looks like someone using a tool of some sort to pry them out. That's what I'm trying to avoid. Didn't have an idea how tight the plates may be. If they are pretty much a drop in piece, it shouldn't take a lot of effort. I doubt there is anything real unusual in the trigger set up, but I'll post a pic of what is in there, just the same.

A local gunshop has one of the IJ side plate 'Hercules' SxS shotguns on the rack. 12ga
The right bbl has separated from both the top and bottom ribs at the muzzle and back about 6".
A bolt w/ nut holds the side plates on instead of the factory screw. Lots of splinters missing around the sideplates in the wood.
Bright shiny bores, no dents that I saw on my quick inspection.


I almost bought it for the oddity of it. Kind of a neat SxS.
Fix up wouldn't be much of a chore.
But it's still there,,I have plenty of other stuff to do.

Well, it took a bit of wrestling, but I did get the left plate off. Rather anti-climactic. Can't see nearly as much as I hoped. Not sure how to progress from here. Screws are visible, but don't know how many are machine screws that have to come out anyways because they are drilled thru the wood, and how many are wood screws. There is a large one underneath the lever to open the action, what looks like a dowel in front of the safety, and a rather worn looking smaller screw to the rear of the safety. On the bottom, there is a large screw going into the frame at the front of the trigger guard, and a medium sized one at the back of the guard. Can't tell if there are any screws hidden from sight other that what I have listed.

Brighter pic

I think I'm about ready to put things back together and put it back in the cabinet. I have bigger doubts by the day about being able to do a proper repair on this, having no knowledge of double barrels at all. I have other shotguns to use, just thought it would be kind of neat to resurrect this one.

I'm not at all mechanical, so can't help. But I'd like to say thanks for showing us your pictures of an interesting gun in the evolution of American doubles.

Old Guy,

You mention “hidden screws”. On a English made boxlock you would first remove the trigger guard by unscrewing the woodscrew/s from the trigger guard tang.

Then lifting the tang clear of the wood and rotating it gently you will probably find the whole guard unscrews around an integral threaded stud just in front of the triggers. You may have to pull the triggers back to get sufficient clearance.

This exposes the trigger plate with machine screw/s attaching to the top tang of the action.

Removing the stock should then be straightforward.

Parabola

Thanks for the tip. I’ll check it out later today.