Phase out of lead for sports shooting, ammunition buy-backs, Hunter/shooter indoctrination, oops, I mean education. Blah, blah, blah. NA shooters better pay attention because it’s coming our way. Until then send all those old guns here. We’ll shoot them for a while longer. Hopefully thin walled choke tubes can prolong the use of the old guns but at $350-400 a tube it will be a financial challenge
The British already produce steel shot loads suitable for use in guns that have not passed steel shot proof. However, those loads are restricted in terms of velocity and pressure. Also in shot size (limited to no larger than English 3.) English 3 are slightly smaller than US 4, which Tom Roster's steel shot tests on pheasants determined were not a very good choice on birds beyond 35-40 yards. Which means that those Brit steel loads wouldn't work on high pheasants, which would require heavier loads of larger steel shot. Or better nontoxic options like tungsten matrix.
I picked up a half dozen flats of lead shot cartridges this week in the UK and the seller told me that lead shot will still be in use on the smaller local shoots but steel will be required on larger shoots that sell the birds into the food chain.
Yeah, when I popped in on Dig in 2019(?), some Supermarkets were already demanding that they would only buy game shot with non-tox. So it has been coming for some time.
The Game Dealer's Association have said that they will not purchase game from shoots that have been shot with lead from mid 2022; so by next game season. The reason being is that export to Europe is very difficult and most of the U.K, Supermarkets won't stock it either unless shot with non-lead ammo. There is a voluntary phase out by 2025 to allow ammunition companies to come up with alternatives. Bismuth is the safe alternative in older guns but expensive; Tungsten Matrix is good but extortionately expensive. Lead will still be permitted at clay shoots, especially those with contained areas for shot fallout. That is until some new Government thinks they can get a few extra votes from the 'Greens' by banning it completely.
I live in the county of Derbyshire in England where lead is prevalent in the ground through about 25% of the county. It has been mined for thousands of years and in fact the Romans made a big thing about lead mining there. It naturally occurs in the ground in huge quantities still. A shooting ground I go to in a rural setting has been going for over 50 years and I go once a month with a small group to shoot vintage guns and muzzle loaders etc. when the main body of recreational shooters haver gone home. It is normal to see pheasants and rabbits feeding about on the ground sometimes with clays falling around them and shot going over as they are more or less used to it. The owner of the ground is yet to see any dead or dying birds from lead poisoning. Lagopus.....
Lagopus, the Romans mined lead in Derbyshire. Go to Tiktok and see some very opinionated people state categorically that there never was a Roman empire, it is all a construct. From there to making up stuff about lead or anything else is a short step.
What have the Romans ever done for us? Evidence: :-)
Plenty of evidence here in the U.K.; roads, walls, baths, buildings and I tend to find coins that they dropped. I'll invite any of these TikTokers to come for a trip out with me and I'll prove it! :-) Lagopus.....
This will not help sale prices, for guns, at auction. Box Locks were already a bargain to me and will only become more so, but how many can a man own? Will see, I suspect. Hammerguns recovered from lack of interest a couple decades ago. I do not think box locks ever will. Fashion trends being O/U as in and now reduced uses for lead shot might be the real end for 95% of them.
Quality will always have a home, while working man's guns, which most box locks are, will be almost name your own price. Pity importing has gotten so expensive, or buyers in the US could gobble up a ton of them. I wonder if Holt's might consider staging an auction in the US, to bring in a large number of them to get fair value out of them while they can. Blixt & Co. and Holt’s had a joint auction in 2016 so there is a history of making it work. Once the market goes total bust in the UK, it will never recover I am afraid and they will have more value here than there, already do. Would come down to economics I guess. Might need 500-1,000 guns to make the numbers work. But importing them in bulk would save the buyer a lot which in turn could become purchase prices.
The cheaper end of the guns are already going for a song. I doubt if much decent stuff will go cheaper as there are alternatives being devised for shot use that comply. In Australia they went mad confiscating guns. Here they are just making a lot of guns more expensive to fire. It may of course go the opposite way with people buying up cheap Spanish and Italian doubles, that can already be bought for less than the price of a couple of boxes of Bismuth cartridges, and shooting steel through them until worn out. I've just got an AyA back from having the chokes relieved so as to be o.k. with the standard steel cartridges. We'll have to see how things pan out over the next year or two. I'll switch when I have used up existing stocks of lead ammo. Lagopus.....
Down here in olde Hampshire it seems to be much the same as in Derbyshire. I have four older side by sides with 2.5" chambers and so cannot fire the 2.75" / 70mm cartridges filled with steel shot. We are told 2.5" steel is being made, but none has arrived in the shops. Also the left barrels of all of mine are Full choke or almost, so to have that one choke opened out costs £100 / $135 at Teagues.
Bismuth cartridges are staggeringly expensive (quadruple the price) and hard to find. A Scottish shoot day that is booked for November has become non-lead, so I shall have to take my modern gun, a 48 year old Nikko with the barrels the wrong way round.
On our local shoot we eat all that we shoot, so what we use to shoot them with is our problem, but this will change in a year or three.
The recent Gavin Gardiner auction [good guy!] had eleven consecutive lots of classic 12 bore British sidelocks offered for sale with reasonable estimates; only two sold! I intend to sit tight for the moment and not spend ANY money until life becomes clearer. Europe is also looking at a lead ban so this may be the end of an era - we shall see...
It’s my understanding there are a number of shooting grounds and/or driven shoots in the UK that require fiber wads because of objections to plastic wads. Steel shot and fiber wads would not work because the thick plastic wad protects the bore from the inevitable scoring that steel shot inflicts on shotgun bores. Another seeming obstacle. There are trap clubs here in the US that have been forced to use steel shot for ATA trap. They reload and seem to get along fine, but plastic wads are necessary.
While I don't like the lead ban I have had to be all non-toxic in Washington state for several years on public land, so initially I bought a Benelli Ultralight to shoot steel, but then Kent started making Bismuth "reasonably priced" at around $1.30 per round. Who knows that it will cost after all the supply line issues. A normal day of rough shooting for pheasants means that I'll spend more in diesel than I will in cartridges. For a driven shoot, I have to think that if you can afford to attend one, you can afford Bismuth cartridges. All we have is hope that as demand goes up for non-steel non-toxic alternatives, the prices may fall (although I won't count on it). Remember what steel initially cost? It wasn't cheap either.
I am sorry to say that this whole Lead issue really angers me. Our largest shooting association BASC made a statement years ago that it would support the alternatives to Lead shot if it became readily available and was economic to buy . That at the minute is not available BUT BASC seems to be the prime mover in promoting a total Lead ban . It is my understanding that they have forwarded £250,000 to an organisation that promotes the sale of Game meat that has not been shot with Lead ! Forwarded this money without consulting its membership! Last Friday May 6th we were subjected to a review intending to ban the total use of Lead ammunition within the next five years and earlier if possible. This review is being administered by HSE Health and Safety Executive which is basically a Government run safety organisation for the employment of people . WHY is it not entrusted to a Shooting Sport organisation? Also it is a lead ban instigated by the EU of which we voted not to be members of so why do we have to follow their example? I am sorry to say that due to very poor representation by our Shooting Sports Organisations we have been sold out . Initially it was stated that clay shooting would not be subject to a lead ban and now they have included ALL shooting in a total Lead ban . What have our National representative clay shooting organisations done ? NOTHING.
Eeb: Here in Britain most game shoots ask Guns to use fibre wads, and have done so for years. The four British cartridge makers are trying to introduce 'plastic' wads made out of non-plastics that will bio-degrade over time on the ground, especially when wet. It is too early to say if these will work well enough, or protect the barrels enough.
The review announced last week runs for six months, and then they will need further months to come to any conclusions, with an implementation period following that, so nothing much will change soon.
Degradeable plastic has been in use for decades in the vegetable growing business. The raised beds that you see in fields growing vegetables are often covered with the kind that degrades and just goes away in a matter of months. I would think it a short step to make plastic shot cups out of something similar.
Stanton, Dream on! BASC have had biodegradable wads sitting in a garden at HQ for years exposed to the elements and they are still there today !
Eley do have a wad that is water soluble but it still lingers around as a slimey mess for days after becoming into contact with moisture . Interestingly enough only yesterday I was made aware that some plastics of the polyurethane type may well contain Lead as a constituent? Sorry to say that as an avid shooting person I now feel abandoned , up the creek without a paddle.
As Salopian and HistoricBore will know we have lots of churches here in Britain (very few attend though) and they just about all have lead covered roofs. I wonder if anyone has ever done a survey as to what happens to all that rainfall (yes it does rain here in Britain) that runs off the roof having been in contact with lead and gets into the drains, then the ditches and then the rivers? Perhaps a five year transition for churches to change the lead to a copper clad roof maybe?
I like to shoot clays with muzzle loaders. I can't afford to stoke them up with Bismuth just to shoot clays.
It wasn't long ago that BASC; British Association for Shooting & Conservation stated quite firmly that their policy was 'No Evidence: No Change' I asked a BASC Official about the evidence and was told that most poisoned birds die out of sight or are eaten by predators. I asked where was the evidence then. That met with silence. Lagopus.....
You guys need to think in Jurassic terms. That period lasted about 145 million years, and, even if there were plastics in use at that time, they wouldn’t be here, now.
The wads, the shot, the empty hulls, whatever, are all just other ideas to legislate us out of existence. At the end of the day, it matters not how long the wad lays on the ground, or if an alternative exists. That isn’t the point.
At the end of the day, it matters not how long the wad lays on the ground, or if an alternative exists. That isn’t the point.
Amen. I farm for a living and the land, and it's health, is super important to me. I go to great lengths to protect it and nurture it. Because, it sustains me and supports me, and I want to be good steward. But, plastic wads and shotgun hulls are the least of my worries. There must be thousands in my fields, mostly below the surface now, from dove shoots, that are in varying states of deterioration. It doesn't bother me in the least.
Plastic hulls deteriorate, when exposed to UV rays, much faster than most think.
All that is a crying shame. Sounds like BASC has an agenda that does not include it’s members. Follow the money.
Turkeys voting for Christmas .......they have achieved nothing of any real good for shooting in decades . When we`ve been legislated out of existense ,they will just move to another trough elsewhere.
I seem to recall an explanation concerning fiber wads on large commercial shoots. Worries about the sheep eating the wads. As for the hulls, the guns were asked to pick them up at the places where I've shot.
Downrange Wads have had biodegradable wads for sale for quite awhile. I've never used them but I would like to hear from someone who has. If they work as well as regular plastic they could be a viable alternative. http://www.downrangemfg.com/index.php/by-series/oxo-bio. Like everything else at this time I don't know about the actual availability.
You are correct. Cattle eat them too. They are indigestible, and they was up into a big nasty plastic gob in the animals guts. I’ve seen many pictures of them.
Lead brings more subtle problems to the mix.
The bottom line, is the bottom line.
The public won’t allow for the burying of end loader buckets full of dead game, and the marketplace that consumes it won’t buy it if it was shot with lead.
So other than for casual shooters, what are they supposed to do? Obviously, scale down the shooting volume, and totally upend an entire industry. And all the estates that support it, and all the people that work in it, and all the communities that depend on it.
I fully agree that all shot game should enter the food chain and if commercial shoots can't sell it to game dealers as their customers won't buy it if shot with lead then the shoot, if it wants to carry on, has to adapt. I personally don't really go in for shooting driven game as it's just like shooting clays with feathers on. I much prefer to work for my shooting and involve the dogs and fieldcraft such as flighting ducks and geese and shooting wood pigeon. Each to his own I suppose. But I would still like the option to shoot food I consume with lead if I wish as the impact on the environment by so doing is negligible.
I fully support not leaving empty fired plastic cases lying around and always, always pick them up and always have done and always will. Untidy antisocial habit to leave litter about. Lagopus.....
I once shot passing doves on a hilltop in Argentina. I did not see many hulls but the plastic wads covered the ground a few inches deep. Not in just one place, but the entire hill. I've also shot ducks at a popular spot near my home and while picking up against the windward shore noticed so many plastic wads that I was amazed. It may be that shooting will have to become less messy...Geo
Degradeable plastic has been in use for decades in the vegetable growing business. The raised beds that you see in fields growing vegetables are often covered with the kind that degrades and just goes away in a matter of months. I would think it a short step to make plastic shot cups out of something similar.
I struggle to accept that the breakdown of any product based on plastic will "just go away"..... out of sight , and out of mind springs to mind; although the material will degrade and breakdown ultimately into very small particles, I believe that research has established this particulate uptake and accumulation in microrganisms, terrestrial and marine. Something to cause concern? Probably not of immediacy for our generation but who knows for those in the long term.
Degradeable plastic has been in use for decades in the vegetable growing business. The raised beds that you see in fields growing vegetables are often covered with the kind that degrades and just goes away in a matter of months. I would think it a short step to make plastic shot cups out of something similar.
I struggle to accept that the breakdown of any product based on plastic will "just go away"..... out of sight , and out of mind springs to mind; although the material will degrade and breakdown ultimately into very small particles, I believe that research has established this particulate uptake and accumulation in microrganisms, terrestrial and marine. Something to cause concern? Probably not of immediacy for our generation but who knows for those in the long term.
It is my understanding that they have been making some forms of plastic from corn, for a good while. I once had a plastic coffee mug that was made from corn. I was informed that corn based plastic can be made to breakdown very quickly. I can assure you that the bed plastic that some vegetable growers use will absolutely go away, with no sign of it left. We all need to understand that "plastics" are not all the same plastics.
There was comment about the "worry" that sheep will eat plastic shotgun wads, and that cattle will also. Do we know this or is it lore? The gory pictures of grazing animals that have eaten plastic, are generally rooting around in garbage, aren't they.
How many thousands of spent wads would a cow have to selectively target for eating, to form a ten or twenty pound blob of plastic in one of their guts. How many beef cattle get to free range graze in upland bird hunting country, for the many years it would take to accumulate an adequately offensive blob of plastic in it. How many beef cattle are allowed to graze in garbage dumps. How many milking cows get to graze in upland bird habitat. Does it matter if penned sheep will eat a plastic bag. How many years is a lamb allowed to graze for plastic wads, before it is no longer a lamb, and of little value to the rancher.
I embrace whatever the UK feels like doing, as long as they do it over there. Something is not adding up, as to what the agendas are that some of our bird hunting friends are trying to message. I'm all for biodegradeable wads, and uncompromisingly pro lead shot, but not if those wads are intended to price shooters out of the market, and is a strategy to discourage the next generation of shooter, hunters.
Certainly Eley are making wads out of corn starch that behave like plastic which they market as the Pro Eco Wad and I think Hull Cartridge Co. and Gamebore are going down the same route for use in steel shot ammo. The Eley ones can go quite quickly if wet and will be a slimy mess in 24 hour in water and being corn starch you can drop one in a glass of water and drink it if you are so minded without any ill effects. The cost is the same as far as I can see and I've used some of them. A lot of packaged item over here come packed in corn starch pieces that look and act like the old expanded polystyrene pieces. I check that it is, because it looks the same, then add it to the garden compost heap. We've never had a problem buying cartridges with card and felt wadding. Plastic wadding was mainly used for clay shooting on some grounds although some grounds only allow fibre wads and the clay cartridges come in both options to cater for this.
I've never known of cattle coming to harm with plastic wads. The things that do need banning are those blasted 'sky lanterns' that people light and set off with no regard as to where they might end up. There are a number of cases of them getting in hay meadows and being chopped up with the silage and the bits of wire frame getting into the cow's guts and piercing through. A very painful death!
I'm quite happy to shoot anything through my guns provided it does not harm them, kills game cleanly and doesn't cost the earth. Lead seems to be the best choice at the moment. I fully intend to use up my existing stock. Lagopus.....
Plastic is a very generic term for a number of organic and petroleum based polymer compounds. Being organic in nature, they absolutely decompose over time, despite what some sources claim. That time may be anywhere from a couple years to 500 years, depending on the chemical composition thickness, exposure to UV light, etc. Unlike things that decompose more readily, such as corn starch based materials or cellophane made from cellulose, it can be a nuisance and an eyesore when it accumulates faster than it breaks down. But the idea that cows, sheep, fallow deer, or ducks are dying in any significant numbers from eating plastic is little more than hysteria or agenda driven bullshit. Animals generally do not evolve and prosper by intentionally eating non-food items like rocks and plastic shotshell wads.
And we all should know by now that the liberals who hate our guns will say and do anything to make shooting more expensive. It's a shame that many shooters still buy into their crap about lead ammo being an existential threat. I worry much more about breaking a tooth on chilled lead shot than getting lead poisoning from a pellet I inadvertently may swallow, that will pass through my digestive system 99.9999% intact in 24 hours or less. There are very few cases of severe or fatal lead poisoning in this country. And the vast majority are due to disorders like pica, which compels some people to eat things like paint chips, or occupational exposure, such as dust from battery manufacturing, or drinking moonshine from stills soldered with lead solder. Wild game consumption is a very minute and negligible lead poisoning risk factor. But I'm sure some gullible fool will post the fake news that lead exposure is causing over 400,000 deaths per year in the U.S. alone. Some people will believe anything.
In the UK, one death of a 2 year old girl was coded to lead poisoning in England between 1981 to 1996. I'd bet it wasn't due to eating wild birds shot with lead ammo.
We all should be asking those Libtards who are so concerned about the existential threats posed by our ammunition why they aren't as concerned about real threats.... such as our open border policy that contributed to over 106,000 drug overdose deaths in the U.S. in 2021.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
The Left never lets the truth stand in the way of their narrative
And that is the real source of this issue ! Not backed by any real independent research ,just dogma spouted by the anti shooting activists across europe who care not a jot for the wildlife they pretend to be interested in .
shooting organisations threw themselves behind the British game alliance which was an organisation made up of stake holder groups such as BASC and game dealers. The goal of the BGA was to find end user markets for shot game.
The BGA identified two potential markets, export to eastern markets, and pulping for use in dog food. - I think the latter forming the main part.
The problem with pulping to make dog food is that when you mince it all up you mince the lead up which is difficult to extract and essentially there will be no market for a dog food which over the years might slowly poison your dog.
The move to steel is so that in the ideal world we can pulp and pulse the meat, float it on water and pass it through high power magnets to remove the shot, the resulting dog food then does not have to have the warning on it that your mutt might go loopy and drop dead.
Of course there are problems with steel, particularly with older guns, these problems are made worse by the fact we actually have a proof house and proof laws and different levels of proof for "high performance steel" and standard steel.
The proof house is being very cautious now saying no steel through more than 1/4 choke, gunsmiths are doing over time boring the chokes out of guns left right and centre. The thing is i remember trying some standard steel about ten years ago, i found it killed well and there was no advice about chokes as far as i can remember.
Gun owners are chopping and changing guns in, part Xing in guns that might be absolutely worthless in a year or so's time but at the same time developments and existing technologies are being found and brought in.
Whatever it is its certainly a boon for the new gun trade and to be honest we haven't found it affect second hand shop sales which we still do well on but the buzz word is definitely steel shot and half chokes, Teague's doing a roaring trade. Retail prices are always inflated, but when you look at auctions old guns have really taken a battering in value you hammer guns and the like then again its hard to find a hammer gun worth buying these days.
I wonder if we will see a change of attitudes, so far as I can see if you really like old guns and want to be one of the few who is still carrying one into the field, you would cough up the £5000 or so and have a new pair of barrels made and proof the gun for standard steel with those barrels fitted up, you can keep you Damascus barrels tucked away for the occasional shot. £5000 is a lot of money granted but when it comes to buying you a nice new gun its money that wouldn't take you very far, few will go down this route for the sake of a tired old hammer gun, but after 150 years what gun wouldn't be tired. Many many gun are being scrapped without second thought, and i think the reality is that in time this will have been seen to be an very destructive period in the gun world. because of that I think surviving examples will be more highly valued, usable examples even more so I suspect there is renewed value in guns what have been sleeved and re barrelled already because they are so much more usable than the thin pitted slightly off face gun that's "completely original"
If we're talking big money and old guns, it might be more reasonable to spend the money on bismuth rather than a new set of barrels. Some time ago the question was asked to a very active and well traveled trap shooter here in the States why he didn't buy a motorhome or trailer and stay at the clubs for the shoots. His answer was "I can stay at an awful lot of hotel rooms for the price of one those things".
shooting organisations threw themselves behind the British game alliance which was an organisation made up of stake holder groups such as BASC and game dealers. The goal of the BGA was to find end user markets for shot game.
The BGA identified two potential markets, export to eastern markets, and pulping for use in dog food. - I think the latter forming the main part.
The problem with pulping to make dog food is....
I'll never pretend to understand UK choices that are rightfully their's, but it is very interesting that games shooting has been reduced to such a narrow mandate. Some of these staged shoots are so obscenely expensive, the tactic seems hypocritical. Human baby food, let alone dog biscuits from China don't always have the healthiest inclusions in it. Anyway, thanks Demonwolf for the insight.
I'll never pretend to understand UK choices that are rightfully their's, but it is very interesting that games shooting has been reduced to such a narrow mandate. Some of these staged shoots are so obscenely expensive, the tactic seems hypocritical. Human baby food, let alone dog biscuits from China don't always have the healthiest inclusions in it. Anyway, thanks Demonwolf for the insight.
Good points craigd. Here in the U.S., most of us eat what we shoot, or give it away to friends who appreciate wild game as a healthy alternative to the estrogen and antibiotic laced meat sold commercially.
In my state at least, it is actually illegal to sell our wild game harvest. So we are not as subject to the influence of those who continue to claim that game killed with lead ammunition is some existential threat to humanity.
Most of us are living proof that it isn't.
It may be too late for the UK and European Union hunters to reverse the tide. Nothing they have given up has been enough. And the only real hope for hunters here is to take a hard stand against it before it reaches the point of no return. Giving in to the wacko Liberal Left is just plain dumb. They will never be satisfied until guns and hunting are totally eliminated.
Just look to our north. Trudeau and the Liberals in Canadian Parliament are on the verge of freezing all sales of new and existing handguns, and implementing a mandatory buy-back of the semi-automatic rifles they hate. So much for the misguided notion that we can persuade the opposition to see things our way. The concept of learning from history is totally lost on some.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
In my state at least, it is actually illegal to sell our wild game harvest. So we are not as subject to the influence of those who continue to claim that game killed with lead ammunition is some existential threat to humanity.
California banned all lead ammo for all hunting a few years ago. One of the arguments presented by the goobers in Sacramento was that we were poisoning the children and the homeless by donating wild game to food banks and shelters. This state is governed by morons.
Also, as I recall the California condor scavenging kills was the overriding consideration. It’s almost as if those birds have the vote
I have been hunting California and Arizona for over 60 years and I have NEVER seen a condor in the wild. Lots of turkey vultures, but no condors. When the goobers were trying to pass the complete statewide lead ban, they invoked the "it's for the children" angle to help get it over the top.
All that is a crying shame. Sounds like BASC has an agenda that does not include it’s members. Follow the money.
eeb, - you have highlighted an inescapable fact regarding BASC.
Quite a number of years ago this organisation announced its opposition to the shooting of large numbers of reared gamebirds , mainly pheasants, on commercial driven bird shoots. It adopted an "advisory" role (self assumed) and issued a set of its own recommendations on what should be acceptable practice for these shoots - bag numbers ie limits, stocking density, and rules on releasing amongst others. The seed of their agenda had seemingly fallen on stony ground: the reverse actually happened for a number of years, during widespread general economic growth the large commercial shoots prospered and got ..ahem... bigger. Despite this it seems that the BASC anti-driven shooting faction (do it our way or...) had not gone away but modified its stance to one more "advisory on best practice" instead of dictatorial. In the last two to three years Covid driven restrictions saw a number of shoots close and now in 2022 due to Avian Influenza amongst the EU gamebird breeder farmers there is a major shortage of replacement stock for importation either as eggs or day old chicks. The big commercial shoots in search of birds for their release programme have driven the price of available replacements to absurd levels - and yes price gouging is quite rampant here. End result will be that smaller commercial shoots which closed for a few seasons will be completely finished and those who cannot source new stock this year will also be done for. So that just leaves - The Big Commercial shoots. ..... Just Another Nail in the Lid.
The later drive to abolish lead shot in UK was driven and spearheaded by the BASC executive - the clique of a few individuals at upper management. In the early stages BASC repeatedly referred to its participation in EU managed "consultations" on future restrictions to use of lead shot and muttered blandishments. Yet again it gradually assumed the mantle of "leader" in this issue in UK - subsequently driving this progamme which will end in the debacle of a complete ban on lead shot, bullet heads and airgun pellets.
These are two big issues driven by an outfit which purports to safeguard shooting sports. There are other instances of their incompetence in dealing with issues such as the abolition of the old game licence issued by state post offices [ how else could one provide figures on the number of participants in game shooting with which to support shooting and refute anti-blood sport organisations] and its almost complete acquiescence in issues on firearm and shotgun licensing procedures.
So this leads the thinker to ponder on the usefulness of BASC -- are they just a bunch of inompetents as living proof of the unintended consequences to their actions, or perhaps fall guys duped in their consultative capacity by organisations inimical to fieldsports, or as agents of self harm to the shooting industry in pursuing their own agenda ? Whatever, the toxic legacy of BASC will bear comparison to other incompetents in the ruling classes and the Law Of Unintended Consequences eg the UK governments post-Thatcher. No doubt you may see similarities in US ....
(PS - in case you think I have an axe to grind on behalf of commercial shoots - I do not participate ).
Last edited by greener4me; 06/08/2207:39 AM. Reason: addition
Once they succeed in taking away all the guns they hate there will be the next group of guns they hate and then another and another. Basically they hate all guns.
It may be too late for the UK and European Union hunters to reverse the tide. Nothing they have given up has been enough. And the only real hope for hunters here is to take a hard stand against it before it reaches the point of no return. Giving in to the wacko Liberal Left is just plain dumb. They will never be satisfied until guns and hunting are totally eliminated.
Just look to our north. Trudeau and the Liberals in Canadian Parliament are on the verge of freezing all sales of new and existing handguns, and implementing a mandatory buy-back of the semi-automatic rifles they hate. So much for the misguided notion that we can persuade the opposition to see things our way. The concept of learning from history is totally lost on some.
I have lots of disagreements with Keith but foundationally, the disagreements are with our methods, not our understanding of the problem. Keith is absolutely correct in the quote above. There is NO compromise that will ever be enough, on guns and on hunting. Those we stand against will only be satisfied when there are no guns in private hands and no hunting of game allowed.
Give no inch, ever, on any kind of gun. Or any type of hunting that respects the game, private property and public access to public land.
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
It may be too late for the UK and European Union hunters to reverse the tide. Nothing they have given up has been enough. And the only real hope for hunters here is to take a hard stand against it before it reaches the point of no return. Giving in to the wacko Liberal Left is just plain dumb. They will never be satisfied until guns and hunting are totally eliminated.
Just look to our north. Trudeau and the Liberals in Canadian Parliament are on the verge of freezing all sales of new and existing handguns, and implementing a mandatory buy-back of the semi-automatic rifles they hate. So much for the misguided notion that we can persuade the opposition to see things our way. The concept of learning from history is totally lost on some.
I have lots of disagreements with Keith but foundationally, the disagreements are with our methods, not our understanding of the problem. Keith is absolutely correct in the quote above. There is NO compromise that will ever be enough, on guns and on hunting. Those we stand against will only be satisfied when there are no guns in private hands and no hunting of game allowed.
Give no inch, ever, on any kind of gun. Or any type of hunting that respects the game, private property and public access to public land.
Lol. You’re not going to like this, keith?
(I’ll chunk you in a wood chipper, Jimmy.)
(In your corner every time, craigd. Imma put mc on the other side of you)
((I have Jimmy centering a line with Toad and Stan. Keep your head up, boys))
Actually, that wood chipper scene has me thinking that may be how they destroyed all evidence of E.M. Reilly's 300 gunmaking employees. It would explain why Argo44 hasn't been able to find any trace of them....
I wouldn't be surprised though, if their names don't show up on absentee mail-in ballots in 2024.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
Actually, that wood chipper scene has me thinking that may be how they destroyed all evidence of E.M. Reilly's 300 gunmaking employees. It would explain why Argo44 hasn't been able to find any trace of them....
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