doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Master eye issue?

ATTENTION!
Dr.Drew Hause, thank you that is a brilliant post from a professional who knows what he is talking about and is a true shooting enthusiast .
I really do tire of reading 'so-called' 'experts' who actually know very little about the subject matter but are quick enough to try and make a dollar.

Thank you.
"Cross-firing", and the advantages of 2-eyed shooting was recognized > 130 years ago
Practical Hints on Shooting: Being a Treatise on the Shot Gun and Its Management; Game, Wildfowl, and Trap Shooting; Together with Notes on Sporting Dogs and Ferrets, and Other Useful Information Relative to Shooting, K. Paul Trench, 1887
https://books.google.com/books?id=xrwUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA63&lpg
Sportsmen are much indebted to Mr. Gilbert for the many scientific inventions which he has made with regard to firearms, both military and sporting. Among the most remarkable of these are his “Two-eyed Sight” and celebrated “Shooting Corrector.” After several years of continued study Mr. Gilbert first produced the two-eyed sight, which was intended to obviate the difficulty so common with sportsmen who have a powerful left eye, and to enable all to shoot with both eyes open.



What was once thought to be fact regarding dominance however turned out not to be.
It was believed, and is still repeated, that dominance is established at birth and does not switch permanently, nor shift transiently and that is incorrect. I can shift dominance station to station, and target to target, on the skeet field

Rhodri Woodhouse, “A Changing View of Eye Dominance”, 2009
http://orca.cf.ac.uk/55827/1/U584362.pdf
The experiments presented in this body of work have shown that eye dominance is not a static phenomenon, as was believed for centuries, but is adaptable to a variety of viewing situations. Dominance switching tends to favour image size as a cue to switching as a larger visual image contains more data that can be used by the visual system.
This adaptability will likely impact upon several other visual processes, such as directional judgements, and the true extent of dominance switching remains to be discovered with this work providing a solid basis for all future studies.

“Eye Dominance and Shooting” by Michael Yardley
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/eye-dominance-and-your-shooting-13003
Age is also a significant issue when considering eye dominance. This is a most intriguing. Most pre-pubescent boys do not have clear dominance in one eye. Post puberty, most (not all) develop absolute or predominant eye dominance in the eye corresponding to their ‘handedness’. As we enter the summer and autumn of our lives things change too. Typically, somewhere between the ages of 45-60, those men who were clearly dominant in one eye may find the other begins to have a significant pull.

And researchers are leaning more regarding the visual processing difference of females and why a majority need some form of occlusive


Stan: the 30 feet refers to depth perception. Binocular summation is not distance related.

I'm thankful that this is one problem I've never experienced; I'm right handed and my right eye is the master eye and it's never shifted.

But one of my uncles does have the problem - he is also right handed, but the left eye has always been dominant. I've always been impressed that he had figured that out by age 10, and without any help. His training back in 1960 consisted of his father giving him a shotgun and telling him to learn to hit with it. He did it by simply learning to shoot left handed, and he has always been one of the best wing shots I have known.

With the technology available today, and easy fixes like the magic dot, it might be better to go a different route now. But I have always thought that my uncle was proof that if you start early enough in life it isn't that hard to just learn to shoot left handed.

Good luck to the lady on finding the best solution.

Thanks, Doc. I understand it a bit better, but not completely, even after reading some more on the two. But, not being in the medical field, the difference is irrelevant for me.

I think I will continue using the term "depth perception" to refer to all distances, up to 30', and beyond (for the simple reason that this is how everyone in my "world" understands it), with one possible exception ...........one of my best shooting buddies says he has very poor vision in his left eye. Being right-handed he still shoots sporting clays extremely well. He complains often about not being able to determine if a target is a standard target way out there or a midi closer in (always beyond 30' however), and uses his "poor depth perception" as an excuse for missing. Next time he uses the term "depth perception", to describe what he lacks, I may just need to correct him, with a lengthy explanation. He may not be convinced, but if it distracts him sufficiently from the task at hand it might "buy me a bird or two". There's nothing quite so fun as getting in your buddy's head.

I am interested in opinions on the school of thought which holds that eye dominance is largely psychological and that by concentrating on the target most people can shoot well with both eyes open.

https://shotgunnirvana.blogspot.com/2021/09/eye-dominance-and-subconscious-mind-in.html (this is long).

https://www.pennsport.co.uk/ (video halfway down the page. This is short on detail).

Both of these mostly discuss new shooters. I have struggled unsuccessfully with strong cross dominance (tape/dots/vaseline, winking) for decades and my mediocre shooting never improves much. However, I occasionally try both eyes open and sometimes it works great for a 10-20 shots, then falls apart and I can't hit a thing. But the fact that it works for a while suggests that it can be learned.

Thoughts?

LGF,
That's what I am faced with now that I see better with my left eye than my right. I find that I do well for awhile and then falter when using both eyes.
I'm just going to keep at it!
Karl

I have a friend who teaches neuro-ophthalmology down the street at Midwestern U. and he would strongly disagree that "eye dominance is largely psychological". Please discuss with your eye professional.

Information from 2 optometrists who specialize in helping shotgunners

Dr. Barry Nolt on cross-firing and gun fit
https://www.drbarrynolt.com/shooting-glasses/shooting-articles-by-dr-nolt/why-did-i-miss/

Dr Richard Colo discussing eye dominance and clay target shooting



Gil Ash and Nick Penn demand 2 eyed shooting



You can draw your own conclusions regarding Ralph Cushman, author of "The Myth of Eye Dominance in Shotgunning and the Reality of the Subconscious Mind" that you linked
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/full-n-fuller-credentials.909965/
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/not-to-hijack-the-eye-dominance-thread.201625/
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/eye-dominance-issue.914183/page-2
https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/left-eye-dominant-shooter.540925/

Dave Carrie, a one eyed & accomplished shooter would disagree with all 3
https://www.davecarrieshooting.co.uk/

as do Ed Solomons and Ed Lyons
https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/worried-about-closing-an-eye.543479/#post-4651525

as does Peter Blakeley
https://www.peteblakeley.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/pete-blakeley-one-eye-or-two.pdf
His discussion of shifting dominance which you'll need to cut and paste into a search as it would not link
https://sites.google.com/site/howspaceisperceived/a-practical-example?tmpl=%2FSsystem%2Fapp%2Ftemplates%2Fprint%2F&showPrintDialogue=1

as does Phil Kiner
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/eye-dominance-issue.874677/page-4
"With all due respect those that think it is an issue of looking properly - YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. PERIOD
If you DON'T have an issue with cross-firing you have no idea what it is like to have an issue and it is real and it is incontrollable and at this moment in time not curable."


There is some degree of dominance plasticity in the very young, which is the point of using an occlusive for amblyopia (lazy eye).
There are anecdotal reports of shooters claiming they can change dominance, and some who are cross-dominant have successfully competed with both eyes open, notably Brad Dysinger.

Drew, thanks very much for another highly informative post. After reading/watching all those links, it is clear that Penn and Cushman are a small minority, and neither explicitly address strong cross dominance in experienced shooters.

As an ex eye professional I feel that Doc Drew's post(s) on this are spot on. I think that I have previously made a post or two concerning vision and shooting and about the very large amount of "information" put out by so-called "experts" on this matter. Some of this "advice" and "explanation" comes from some very well known individuals.

His explanation about depth perception and judging distance is particularly good and easily understood by the layman. As he explains, BINOCULAR vision is extremely important for depth perception for ranges UP TO about 20 feet or so. Beyond that distance it essentially makes zero difference whether using MONOCULAR (one eye) or BINOCULAR (both eye) vision. Unfortunately I can verify that this is true due to the fact that I was blinded in one eye 13 years ago. And of course the affected eye was my master eye which forced me to learn to shoot from the opposite side which is another story. (Need help with that? I've got answers, haha.)

Very close (arm's length) depth perception is terrible. Examples would be threading a needle, using tools, pouring liquids, pushing buttons at the gas pump and even something as simple as applying tooth paste to a tooth brush requires a lot of effort. At a bigger distance like parking a vehicle? Extremely difficult to determine if I am six inches or three feet from an object in front. Same with mirrors pulling into a garage. Again, get beyond the approximate 20 foot range and the problem totally disappears. In other words, judging target distance with one eye only is unaffected. Obtaining a driver's license is a non-issue. In fact I can still hold a 1st Class FAA Airman's Medical for my ATP certificate.

I did and do notice that processing visual information was slower. Initially there was a noticeable difference which with time has effectively disappeared for the most as far as I am aware. An example of this would be trying to pick a single out on a Bobwhite covey rise! Now that I do notice! Actual visual acuity in the remaining eye is totally unchanged, still 20/15. However, using TWO eyes with good vision is simply far more effective because that's the way our total visual system is designed to function. My take from all of this is that if you have two normally functioning eyes use them BOTH. And it goes without saying.....PROTECT them.

It will be a lot easier to just link this thread when similar questions arise in the future, so I thought I'd add Robert Churchill's How To Shoot written in 1925. "The Master Eye" is Chapter VIII
In the normal man the degree of "master eyedness" is slight. What is not so well-known is that fatigue of the master eye rapidly transfers the mastery (temporarily of course) from one eye to the other.
If you strain and weaken the command of your right eye by putting your head down to the stock of a badly fitting gun or by a bad habit of gunmounting you tire the eye.
After a few such shots the right eye is fatigued and the left then takes mastery.
(His interpretation of transient dominance switching)
In practice at other sports this eye problem does not appear to cause trouble. Left eyed cricketers and tennis and golf men all probably exist but only in shooting do we hear of it as a dreadful physical problem.
(Interestingly, today we believe cross-dominance may be of an advantage in baseball, cricket and golf.)

If you learn to shoot without contortions and strain you will be in the same position as the ordinary man who uses his eyes all day without any perceptible strain or discomfort. By adopting a natural head position 75% of the master eye difficulty is solved.
If, on the other hand, you are completely left-eyed...(a "left-eyed" gunstock) will compensate for the trouble...

https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/robert-churchill-eyesight-and-the-master-eye.910472/