doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers

Hey, don’t be mad at me Gene, I’m not the one that chased you off the IGC with pitch forks and torches like you were Shrek. All anyone has to do is read the exchange between the two of you to see who the nutty one was.
Like Bluestem said….the guy at IGC went line for line with you and gave back exactly what you tried giving him. You didn’t like that very much, exactly how you don’t like it when folks do that to you on this board. You like to give it, but don’t like any pushback. Face it….You got handled on IGC, Gene.
So please, don’t accuse me of making anything up. It’s all right there, plain as day. You won’t post there because you know you’ll get critiqued and critiqued hard and that bothers you to no end. Knowing that people don’t go along with your wild and completely unfounded presumptions really irks you. Heck, it really bothers you when you post 10 new pages of crap and nobody acknowledges it….Keeps you up at nights even. Sometimes I bet you’re up at all hours of the night and even in the wee morning hours just stewing and going nuts trying to figure out why nobody seems to care. That’s sad.

Regarding your pics of Purdeys factory: it might not look like a factory, but we all damn well know they built guns in that factory!!! Unlike Reilly.

Reilly built guns: Ok. He built guns in the early 1800’s and some pin fires. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn’t. Big deal. Prove without a doubt they built modern guns (1870’s-1900’s). You can’t. Because they didn’t. So don’t ever show us a W&C Scott crystal indicator gun and presume to tell us the Reilly built it in house. Don’t ever show us a Greener FP actioned gun and tell us Reilly built that. Basically, don’t show us any guns that aren’t pinfires and tell us Reilly built them, deal?
Don’t show us a boxlock gun because Reilly never built those either. Don’t show us a Enfield SMLE and tell us Reilly built that because they didn’t. Don’t tell us that Reilly employed 300+ gunmakers because that didn’t happen either.
Please tell us the names of some of Reilly’s gun making team in golden era of English gunmaking? Not a store manager, but an actual gunmaker. Can’t do it because they didn’t exist.
Don’t show us another stupid case label and tell us Reilly made guns and call that your definitive evidence.

Donald Dallas & Cyril Adam’s…..how in the world could they piece together all of this jumbled up minutiae and come to that conclusion? How could anyone!!??? I believe they just told you what you wanted to hear to shut you up and quit bothering them.

Just put the book in print already and it’ll get critiqued. You better not read any of the critiques because if this keeps you up at night, imagine how you’re going to be when you don’t have a forum to attack the negative critics and the naysayers. That just might push you over the edge.

Good luck with the book, Gene. Looks like there’s already some people eagerly waiting to buy it. That’s great.

Dustin, I don't know where all that anger and hate comes from. It is sad. Early on I paid attention to you...I went looking for test ranges, etc. and I treated you with a lot more respect than I received back. Now you've just descended into vituperation and personal attacks. You read nothing, absorb nothing, learn nothing, impart nothing. You make no intellectual points, no analysis or understandable counter-arguments and you just plain make things up.

Here's a suggestion. I don't think you can or will contribute anything on this line. So why don't you just stop reading it. It'll make you feel better.

Gene.

If you want to read the original history which had no footnotes and was not nearly as detailed as this and more easily understandable go to p.54.

I am going to finish this chapter by chapter, about 30 more posts and some will be controversial. Then we can call it quits. There is a reason. You provoked this. But, It made me review everything I collected, correct some things, add others, edit the prose and some of the chapters were meant to be historical references (such as the Reilly-Comblains) in case someone was researching the topic. And it will be seen through.

======= *66 1875-80: Choke Boring and New Proof Marks TEXT ========

*66 1875-80: Choke Boring and New Proof Marks

In Jan 1875 WW Greener had perfected his choke boring method which became the standard of the industry. It was immediately controversial with some traditionalists maintaining it did nothing but make shooting more difficult. However, tests run by “the Field” in March 1875 showed its advantages. London and Birmingham proof marks were immediately changed with “Not For Ball” being added to choke bored shotguns. Of course, if a gun had no choke the stamp was not used and most UK shotguns sold up to 1880 were cylinder bore.

The interesting fact about Greener's choke boring system is that unlike some inventions, just about every gun-maker in London jumped on it. By late spring all sorts of high-quality makers were advertising the system. (This almost instanteous adoption of Greener's choke boring is an interesting phenomena from the formerly extremely change-resistant UK gun community. By 1875 excitement over new innovations was apparently driving the market; and much like Reilly did in the late 1850's others now jumped whole-heartedly onto the band-wagon of new ideas, to sell new guns and make the old ones feel out-dated; shades of modern marketing).

. . . . .Reilly's first advertisement for a choke-bored shotgun is from 08 May 1875, "The field"*66a.

. . . . .SN 20681 (1877) - 12 bore SxS side-lever hammer-gun shotgun: 1st extant Reilly shotgun with a confirmed “Not For Ball" proof stamp.*66b

===== *66 1875-80: Choke Boring and New Proof Marks END TEXT ======

===== *67 1875-80: Reilly paying royalties for Patent uses: TEXT =====

*67 1875-80: Reilly paying royalties for Patent uses:

This esoteric chapter is placed here for academic reasons because it potentially could be a very important tool in understanding Reilly (and other London gunmakers). From the early 60’s to the end of the company in 1912 Reilly used others’ patents on his guns and paid patent royalties to these companies (as did virtually every gun-maker in London). Reilly apparently thought it cheaper and faster to build his own versions of the patents than wait an intermiable period for an action or forend or an injector to be delivered.

However, the question remains (never to be adequately answered because of the chaotic nature of patent use numbers), “if a gun has a patent use number stamped on it, was it built by the payer of the royalties, or by the owner of the patent, who built it in the white and sent it to the royalty payer?” It would seem to be the former but it could be both. The problem of trying to investigate patent use numbers also lies with individual users and auction houses. With the exception of Toby Barclay no one seems to pay attention to these important markers.

This chapter will not go deep into this rabbit hole, but is meant to be an example of what one might find in investigating it further because Reilly is recorded historically as paying patent royalties to various companies.

The most common patents found on existing post 1860 Reilly guns (with patent use numbers- i.e. royalties paid to the patent owners) are as follows:

1860, May - J.D. Dougall “Lockfast” action patent. Per published information Reilly made a gun in 1861 with documented royalty payents paid to Dougall. *67a

1860, 15 Nov - Henry patent 2802 - 7 groove shallow rifling. The patent was extended in December 1874 for four years and then by a process not understood for another 10 years to 1888. Reilly built dozens of Henry barreled rifles and paid the royalties (as did virtually every gun-maker in London). Henry records exist but do not record royalty payments. The first extent Reilly Henry-barreled rifle is SN 17626 (1872) and last gun being SN 27405 (1885).

. . . . .SN 17626 (1872) - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London. .450 SxS Rifle. BPE. C-F, U-L, hammer gun. 28” Henry Pat #408, 409.*67b

. . . . .SN 27405 (1885) - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned). .577/500 SxS BPE Rifle. U-L, hammer gun. 8 lbs, 11 oz. Henry rifling A&T.*67c

1863, 01 May - J. Purdey patent no. 1104 - “double bite” under action bolt. Found on Reilly guns up to the expiration of the patent in 1877. The Purdey patent 1104 combined with the Scott spindle became one of the standards of the industry. It expired on 01 May 1877. Nine extant Reilly guns have 1104 patent use numbers. Presumably Reilly paid Purdey directly though how much is unknown. Patent use numbers were usually not chonological and were sometimes sold in batches. Purdey was queried about records for patent use payments; unfortunately these are locked away and cannot be accessed; they would have a story to tell. The first extant Reilly with a 1104 patent use # is SN 17393 (1872) and the last SN 20623 (April 1877)

. . . . .SN 17393 (1872) - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London and 2 Rue Scribe, Paris; 12bore. Shotgun SxS. Push-forward U-L, hammer gun. Purdey Pat 1104, use #948 (dated 1872)*67d

. . . . .SN 20623 (Apr 1877) - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London and Rue Scribe, Paris. 12 bore. Shotgun SxS. U-L, rebounding hammer gun. (Purdey patent 1104 use #4928 (April 1877)*67e

1875, 11 May - Anson & Deeley patent 1152 and/or 1756 - Boxlock hammerless action. See separate post below. 25% of extant Reilly's made after 1880 are boxlocks. The first extant A&D Reilly boxlock is SN 22482, use # 1156:

. . . . .SN 22482 (early 1880) - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned), 12 bore SxS Shotgun. BLE. A&D use # 1156. *67f

1876. Scott patent 761 from 1878, the "Triplex Action" which included crystal indicators, etc. There are 5 extant Reilly’s with the Scott patent 761: Please note that Holland & Holland bought a bunch of the Scott patent 761 “Triplex Actions” early on during the first 6 years of the patent; in 1882 he advertised a "Triplex grip" pigeon gun*67g :

. . . . .SN 24675 (1882) - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned). 12 bore SxS. top lever, hammerless, back lock, non-ejector. Scott action patent 761(no use #).*67h

. . . . .SN 24736 (1883) - E.M. Reilly & Co., (stock, action,forend). 12 ga. Shotgun SxS. Scott triplex action Pat 761 use #339, Perks, crystal indicators, Scott gas check Pat 617 use #1233.

. . . . .SN 25038 (1883) - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Sreet, London & Rue Scribe, Paris. 12 Bore Shotgun SxS. Top lever, hammerless. Scott/Baker pat 761, use #200; Needham/Hinton sears (Pat 705) 1879 patent.*67i

. . . . .SN 27853 (1886) - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London & Paris Improved Patent. 16 bore, Shotgun SxS. Dolls Head; Side-clips; S-L, Scott triplex action Pat 761 use #2112, Perks, crystal indicators, Scott gas check Pat 617 use #1953, Whitworth Steel barrels, 1st of pair. "Not for Ball"*67j

. . . . .SN 27854 (1886) - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London & Paris Improved Patent. 12 bore, Shotgun SxS. Dolls Head; Side-clips; S-L, Scott triplex action, Perks, crystal indicators, Whitworth steel barrels, 2nd of pair.*67k

1882, 8 Feb - Scott patent 617 - gas check. An amazingly simple patent which preserved shotgun actions from the corrosive effect of black powder, found with patent use #’s on 20 or so Reilly shotguns from 1882-to the dawn of smokelesspowder. (It was not used on rifles apparently).*67l

1886 - Perkes patent 10679 – ejector. Reilly used several Perkes patent forends and ejectors on his rifles.

1865 - Whitworth patent for fluid compressed steel barrels. Patent extended for 5 years in 1879. Reilly began using Whitworth steel barrels on his pigeon guns in 1882 (SN 24365). (see separate chapter on steel barrels below.

. . . . .SN 24365 (1882) - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned). Shotgun SxS, 12 bore, top lever, 31" whitworth steel barrels, pigeon gun).*67m

=== *67 1875-80: Reilly paying royalties for Patent uses: END TEXT ===

===== *68 1878-80: Paris exposition; Situation of the company TEXT =====

*68 1878-80: Paris exposition; Situation of the company

Reilly again exhibited at the 1878 Paris exposition*68a and again won medals.*68b

In 1880 Reilly sold about 650 serial-numbered guns a year, a number which had remained pretty constant since the opening of the Paris store in 1868. This was still a third more hand-made bespoke guns than both Holland & Holland and Purdey combined.

This was in addition to other revenue streams for the company including:
. . .-- a very active business in guns sold under license from well known gun makers including revolvers - Trantor, Baumont-Adams, Walker, Colt, etc), rook rifles, repeating rifles - Sharps (sole importer)*68c, Winchester*68d, etc.,
. . .-- as well as merchandising every type of gun accoutrement - reloaders, cartridges, shells, cases, etc.
. . .-- and sustaining a huge business in previously owned guns.

Reilly got regular publicity from users of his guns, who posted comments in "The Field"*68e and from an editor of "The Field" who consistently lauded his Reilly-made 20 bore shotgun in numerous articles.*68f

The company had a firm niche in the London gun-making business and several commentators have speculated that he was building guns in the white for other makers. But EM, with the death of his dreams of obtaining a contract for a military rifle, had bigger plans.

=== *68 1875-80: Paris exposition; Situation of the company END TEXT =====

===== *69 Reilly in the early 1880's; 1881 Census; 1000 guns a year TEXT =====

*69 Reilly in the early 1880's; 1881 Census; 1000 guns a year

Reilly's business was booming and expanded dramatically. Serial numbered gun production rose from about 650 a year in 1880 to over 1000 a year in 1882.

Reilly told the 1881 census taker that he employed some 300 people in his firm in his two workshops on Oxford street and store in Paris and agents in Birmingham, an extraordinarialy high number for the times, an indication of the extent of his gun manufacturing and sales business.*69a (WW Greener in the same census claimed to employ 140, less than half the number of Reilly; Purdey in 1871 said he employed 58, 1/5th the number of Reilly workers).*69b

The number “300” has become controversial and a number of writers have tried to pooh-pooh it, downplay it or explain it away. After all the average number of employees at a London gunmaker in 1851 was "14." But the words are from E.M. Reilly to the census taker as are those of Greener, etc. Reilly had no reason to embellish. The gun trade was highly cyclical as illustrated by this post on the Birmingham gun industry. Not one Birmingham gun making concern could say exactly how many workers were employeed on a given day.*69c

Reilly, at the time of the 1881 census was expanding his sales of serial numbered guns from about 600-650 per year, a number which had remained constant for 12 years, to over 1000 the following year. It was entirely possible that at the time of the census Reilly was expanding his workforce and this could have included independent gun part makers under contract to him. However, the fact remains that this is what the census taker noted; if the figure is challenged then the figures for Greener, Purdey et.al are also wrong.

Note: See below chapters on the A&D Boxlock and his decision to begin “selling off the rack.” It is probable that with his 1880 pivot to the boxlock that he began to sell guns made in the white in Birmingham like everyone else, which might well account for the increased production.

He also around this time allegedly (not confirmed) began importing cheap Belgian-made revolvers in parts which he assembled in his buildings, engraved and sold. (Reilly, like Trantor and others, possibly was involved with the Belgian manufacture and "assembly trade" much earlier...perhaps dating to as early as the 1850's).

=== *69 Reilly in the early 1880's; 1881 Census; 1000 guns a year END TEXT ===

===== *70 1880: Reilly and the Anson & Deeley Boxlock TEXT =====

*70 1880: Reilly and the Anson & Deeley Boxlock

In early 1880 Reilly adopted the boxlock (Anson & Deeley 1875 Patent) and began building or having them built in significant numbers. Some 25% of the surviving Reilly guns from 1880-1912 are Boxlocks.

The Anson & Deeley boxlock articles and ads began to appear in the UK press in 1877 following a full page ad in “The Field” by Westley-Richards.*70a W-R quoted an article in the US Press for the 1876 centennial about the gun cribbed from a Birmingham press article of 1876.*70b By summer 1877 the Anson & Deeley was being advertised by all sorts of London gunmakers. Even a few prominent ones such as Greener began to market the gun.*70c However, Reilly (like a few other London gun-makers) never specifically advertised the A&D. Reilly endorsed the boxlock whole-heartedly an 1882 cameo on his company but he was clearly several years behind some.*70d

By 1880 Reilly was beginning to dramatically expand serial numbered production from 650 to over 1000 a year and had decided to "sell off the rack." (see below) The A&D boxlock would certainly have simplified the manufacturing process. Reilly could have tried to produce these himself at least early on..he had the ego and the manufacturing space.

But almost certainly Reilly began to avail himself of Birmingham produced actions in significant numbers for the first time. Buying boxlock actions from Birmingham and finishing them in London, as just about the entire trade did at the time, would have been a logical business step. Birmingham was fully geared up to produce boxlocks by 1880. The impression is strengthened since Reilly did not include the A&D in his late 1870-early 1880 ads. Importing guns in the white from Birmingham would also explain how Reilly could jump serial numbered gun production up 400 a year without adding more manufacturing space.

Birmingham box-lock actions usually have workers' initials on them someplace. None have yet to be found on a Reilly box-lock but this type of information is not usually published by auction houses.

. . . . . . . . . .-- SN 22482 (1880): The first surviving Reilly box-lock is SN 22482 (1880), a 12 gauge top lever shot gun, A&D Patent use #1156.*70e

=== *70 1880: Reilly and the Anson & Deeley Boxlock END TEXT ===

======== *71 1882: Selling Off The Rack TEXT ========

*71 1882: Selling Off The Rack

In late 1881 per advertisements it appears that Reilly made a business decision to stock ready-made guns and sell them off-the-rack as well as selling his usual bespoke made-to-order guns.*71a This might account for the soaring number of guns serial numbered per year, which grew from about 650 numbered in 1880 to some 1050 in 1882. It might also account for certain discrepancies in serial numbered guns from this time forward such as 303xx which would have been numbered in late 1888-early 1889 but still has "Not For Ball" on its barrels (a stamping discontinued in 1887).*71b

If this were the case, Reilly possibly serial numbered his bespoke guns when ordered (usual London practice) and his off-the-rack guns when sold. (When knowledgable gun historians and makers were queried about this phenomena - guns with pre-1887 proof marks apparently made after that date - they shrugged and said essentially that no-one can logically explain the process at the time - some gun makers ignored or stretched the law; some used barrels already proofed..etc.)

As pointed out above, the decision to vastly expand production and sell ready-made guns may mark the origin of a trend towards marketing Birmingham-made guns finished in London to satisfy demand, supplementing Reilly’s own production which seemed to max out at about 650 a year per the attached chart.

====== *71 1882: Selling Off The Rack END TEXT ======

==== *72 Nov 1881: Oxford Street Re-numbered; Change in Labels TEXT ====

*72 Nov 1881: Oxford Street Re-numbered; Change in Labels

In November 1881 Oxford Street was renumbered; "502" became "16 New Oxford Street" and "315" becoming "277 Oxford Street." The first advertisements for the new numbers appeared in early November 1881.*72a.

(Prior to the renumbering virtually the entire block were 315 and Purdey's 314 1/2 were located was numbered either "314" or "315." Attached is the 1882 London postal directory which has both sets of numbers for that block for the record.*72b.

The first Reilly with either of the new addresses is SN 23536 below:

. . . . .SN 23536 (Nov 1881) - The first extant gun with either of the new addresses on the ribs is SN 23536, a 12 ga. SxS BLE shotgun with E.M. Reilly & Co, 277 Oxford St., London on the rib. *72c

In spite of the formal change in numbering, the old numbers occasionally appeared in Reilly ads and on gun ribs for the next couple of years.*72d

Labels changed to reflect the two new addresses:

. . . . .-- A label for "16, New Oxford Street" with "rue Scribe" exists obviously post November 1881 and pre July 1885.*72e



. . . . .-- However, the Reilly trade label used at "315 Oxford Street" does not appear to have changed definitively to the new numbering system until after rue Scribe closed in 1885; no "277 Oxford Street, London" labels with the Paris branch have so far been found. (There are a very limited number of the 277 labels for this time period uncovered so far; one may still turn up).*72f

. . . . . . . . . ._____________________
. . . . . . . . . |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
. . . . . . . . . |. . . .Reilly Label. . . . .|
. . . . . . . . . |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
. . . . . . . . . |____________________|

. . . . .-- A presentation case label from this time period has yet to come to light. However there is a presentation case for SN 26181 (a very special gun) SN'd in 1883 but with a case from 1880 for the King of Spain with the 502 address and "Gun and Rifle Manufacturers" on it. The key is the use of blue velvet which appears to have become the Reilly hallmark for the next 30 years for presentation cases:
. . . . . . . . . ._____________________
. . . . . . . . . |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
. . . . . . . . . |. . . .Reilly Label. . . . .|
. . . . . . . . . |. . . Presentation . . . . |
. . . . . . . . . |____________________|

== *72 Nov 1881: Oxford Street Re-numbered; Change in Labels END TEXT ==

====== *73 1881: Spanish and Dutch Royal connection TEXT =======

*73 1881: Spanish and Dutch Royal connection

In 1881 in addition to the connection to the King of Portugal Reilly began advertising a connection to the Spanish and Netherlands thrones, advertising which continued for the next 8 years.*73a The crests of the two monarchs appeared also on an outlier label from 1884-85.*73b

Spanish King Alphonso XII was a modernizer and much liked by the Spanish people. He unfortunately died in November 1885, cutting short what could have been a revitilization of the country.*73c He introduced the English sport of pigeon shooting to Spain. There are two existing Reilly gun’s dedicated to the King of Spain:

. . . . .SN 25161 (1883) - E.M. Reilly & Co., 502, New Oxford Street, London & rue Scribe, Paris. .500 BPE/12 ga. Rifle/Shotgun; side lever, hammer gun. (King of Spain prize - 1880 case; Purdey double-bite patent 1104.*73d The story of 25161 is odd but it likely led to the Reilly claim to build guns for Alphonso XII. 25161 was to be given as a prize in 1880 by the King according to the case. However, the gun has an 1883 serial number and a pre Nov 1881 address on the rib. It is a beautiful gun and case presentation

. . . . .SN 25572 (1883) - E.M. Reilly & Co., 16, New Oxford Street, London and Paris, Gun & Rifle Manufacturers. .450 BPE. Rifle SxS. U-L, hammer gun. "To Their Majesties Kings of Spain and Portugal” on the rib. The gun was purchased in Spain but there is no history attached.*73e

No extant examples of Reilly guns made for the King of the Netherlands, William III, a giant abusive man who may have been insane, but who, with his second marriage in 1878 settled down quite a bit,*73f or the King of Portugal, Louis I from the Braganza Dynasty,*73g have been discovered. (Reilly’s claim to make guns for the King of Portugal has already been discussed and dates to 1876.)

==== *73 1881: Spanish and Dutch Royal connection END TEXT =====