doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers

I am going to move on; I started this line to date Reilly guns. I found a very odd and confusing narrative about Reilly history that had been created apparently in the mid-late 20th century. Using only 19th century sources I compiled the data and wrote the history. There is not one reference I can find in 19th and early 20th century publications and journals calling Reilly a "retailer."

To reply to Dustin re-IGC. I put an early version of the Reilly history on the site. A moderator named John accused me of plagiarizing their Reilly history (which incidentally notes that Reilly made guns) and of violating their copyright, The allegation was scurrilous. When I finally read their history it was not bad for pre-internet, but there were errors and it was not footnoted. My research had been posted here for all to see. I told "John" to "sue me."

So Dustin it was not the substance that "John" objected to (and I do know his full name). But slander is not something to be abided and for that reason I won't post there. You can ask other UK members here why they quit IGC.

That's the story Dustin so please don't make things up. And I put a post on this line about it two years ago when it happened (see p.49). The thing that is really galling about this, though, is that the IGC wrote their history in 2002. For 20 years they've known Reilly built guns and said nothing about it as disinformation became set in stone. Now Dustin, you need to go on IGC and correct their false belief that Reilly made guns.

And, I have no desire to change your long held opinion that Reilly was "merely a retailer." Someone must have told you that early on and I don't think you've done any research at all to confirm whether what you were told was true. But there are gun scholars, who have changed their mind, Donald Dallas being one of them, Cyril Adams before he died being another. I'll take their opinion over yours. sorry.

One last note for Dustin. I have posted pictures of Purdey's "factory" at 314 1/2 Oxford Street, and Lang at 22 Cockspur Street (where the first pin-fires were made). They don't look like traditional "factories."

And for all of you who took on board the rhetorical 1850's questions about Reilly and pin-fires, no-one has addressed the main point. Who in UK could have built Reilly's four pin-fires for the trials in 1858, if Reilly didn't do it? The infrastructure didn't exist... Oh yes...and if he could build a center-break pin-fire SxS in 1858 at the dawn of UK break-action history, why couldn't he build a side-lock SxS in 1880?

The Paris episode was split into 4 parts to make posting footnote pictures easier. I won't be doing posting photographs for the moment - it's a shame - there is important history in them; but have left the chapters divided per below so when I feel like tackling this again, it will be easier.

====== *60 1867-1870, Paris-1: Reilly Takes on Paris, Again TEXT ======

*60 1867-1870, Paris-1: Reilly Takes on Paris, Again; Gun-Maker for Napoleon III

EM Reilly always seemed to be enamored with Paris and as the 1867 Paris Universelle exposition*60a approached, he meticulously prepared an exhibit*60b that was extensively lauded.*60c It won him gold and silver medals.*60d

Note: Apparently the entire exhibit of Reilly guns at the Paris Universelle was bought by Grand Duke Constantine (son of Czar Nikolas I) and Count Nikolay Alexandrovich Orloff, who was then the Russian ambassador to Belgium, at the time the cockpit flash-point of Europe. (Russia and UK guaranteed Belgian independence).*60e

As a result of the medals E.M. Reilly became a "gun maker" for Napoleon III.*60f, *60g


==== *60 1867-1870, Paris-1: Reilly Takes on Paris, Again END TEXT ===
=== *61 February 1868-1870, Paris-2: Reilly opens 2 rue Scribe TEXT ===

*61 February 1868-1870, Paris-2: Reilly opens 2 rue Scribe, Paris as “E.M. Reilly & Cie”

Reilly’s triumph in Paris led him in February 1868 to open a branch office (EM Reilly & Cie.) at 2 rue Scribe, Paris where orders for his guns could be taken.*61a The store was located in the Grand Hotel near the Gare du Nord, a prime location (British travelers to Paris arrived at the Gare du Nord).*61b, *61c, *61d This branch office remained open for the next 17 years.

. . . . .-- SN 14983 - The first extant gun with 2 rue Scribe on the rib is 14983, an 8 bore SxS under-lever, hammer gun shotgun (with a firing system very much resembling the earlier Lancaster "base-fire" action - other observers note that it was very like the Pape patent with retractable firing pins).*61e

The extant gun’s hammers resemble the hammers pictured in Reilly ads at the time.*61f

. . . . .-- SN 15287 - A second center fire 12 gauge shotgun hammer gun from this period with similar hammers.*61g

Note: The French press in articles about Reilly in the 20th century has claimed that the artistic elegance and balance of a Reilly gun came from its association with Paris.*61h


== *61 February 1868-1870, Paris-2: Reilly opens 2 rue Scribe END TEXT ==
============ *62 1868-1897 – Paris-3: New Label TEXT ===============

*62 1868-1897 – Paris-3: New Label

His case labels changed at this time to feature the two medals won at the 1867 World's Fair and often (but not always) mentioned both branch addresses.*62a, *62b



His presentation cases appeared to be red velvet with the 502 and 2 rue Scribe addresses on them, sometimes with no "promotion clause", sometimes with "Gun Manufacturers" below the name:
. . . . . . . . . ._____________________. . . . . . . . . ._____________________
. . . . . . . . . |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |. . . . . . . . . |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
. . . . . . . . . |. . . .Reilly Label. . . . .|. . . . . . . . . |. . . .Reilly Label. . . . .|
. . . . . . . . . |. . . Presentation . . . . |. . . . . . . . . |. . . Presentation . . . . |
. . . . . . . . . |____________________|. . . . . . . . . |____________________|

========== *62 1868-1897 – Paris-3: New Label END TEXT ===========
==== *63 1870, Paris-4: Fall of Napoleon III; Reilly Prosecuted TEXT ====

*63 1870, Paris-4: Fall of Napoleon III; Reilly Prosecuted; Pro-French proclivities:

Two and a half years later the Franco-Prussian War broke out. After the battle of Sedan September 3, 1870 Napoleon III fell from power*63a - the Third French Republic was declared; the medals (with Napoleon III's profile on them disappeared from Reilly's case labels for awhile yet continued occasionally to resurface on both labels and in advertisements for the next 15 years.

Note: Napoleon III died in exile in England in 1873. His widow Empress Eugenia*63b bought a Reilly 12 bore SxS shotgun, while in England SN 17532 (dated per the chart to mid 1872), and a second Really 16 bore (SN unknown) both of which are now in the USA somewhere. Her son was killed in the Zulu Wars in 1879. She died in 1920 having been awarded the Order of the British Empire.

Reilly's affinity for France was well known and commented on in London newspapers at the time. (Was this possibly an Irish-French Catholic connection?)

-- A French woman was found in his house in the 1861 census;*63c

-- In Fall 1870 he was prosecuted for attempting to smuggle 2,000 shells to his rue Scribe address, a violation of UK neutrality in the conflict; The London press commented to the effect that this Reilly-Francophile affinity was inevitable (i.e. Reilly "couldn't help himself."). Reilly maintained that the French Republic had invaded his store and confiscated all the guns; he dared not resist their insistence on ammunition. (The cartridges in question were for Snider .577 sporting rifles in Reilly’s inventory in Paris. What happened to his shotguns is unknown).*63d, *63e, *63f

-- and in 1871 Reilly offered to sell 6,000 Chassepot rifles (stored in Birmingham) to the new French Republic. (Obviously the rifles were to be sent to France via some sort of back-channel; the French parliament - really a sort of 3rd Republic "Revolutionary Committee," hesitated over a few centimes of commission - the opportunity was lost).*63g

-- There are Reilly trade labels from the period where the owner of the gun has taken pains to erase the Paris address - Francophobia was alive and well in UK.*60h

-- And with this long-time connection, one must assume that early on, after the 1851 exposition, EM was in contact with French center-break breech-loader makers and must have been experimenting. He had contacts in Liège (as did Trantor or perhaps through Trantor) possibly as early as the 1850's.

-- Whether he spoke French is unknown. Howeveer, there are mid-1860’s Reilly advertisements which mention, “Ici on Parle Francais” (French spoken here).*63i


=== *63 1870, Paris-4: Fall of Napoleon III; Reilly Prosecuted; END TEXT ===

Wake me when we get to the chapter on Kelly Reilly. Or how about John C. Reilly? Hell, I'd settle for something about Charles Nelson Reilly by now.

Thanks BS...that is pretty thin commentary..

This is being re-posted chapter by chapter with footnotes because of certain "cherry-picking" comments made about the history by Dustin. It is pure classic history distilled directly from primary sources and documented every step of the way. Just don't read it if you don't like it... until you can buy it in print form later.

"Lighten up Frances." You take yourself way too seriously. Since you cut-and paste anything with the name "Reilly" I figured we'd get to Kelly eventually. I notice you don't address Dustin's or others' criticisms (used in the academic sense) directly. Just more circular reasoning to consult your "history." Atlantis, Shangri-La, Reilly's massive London factory selling guns to Purdey. Self-publishing this behemoth? Carry on, Sport.

Nice response BS. It added a lot to double-gun history. Stay tuned mon cher.

(You need to get over to the IGC along with Dustin to protest their 2002 history which said Reilly made guns).

I saw the IGC post, along with you being accused of plagiarism, playing coy with dates, etc., etc. It sounded like you were all set to cross the pond and duel the poor chap to defend your honor. The gentleman countered all your points you moved on to less critical pastures. Tempest in a teapot, as they say. Sorry, but I will skip the book. However, I will watch the mini-series, especially if you can cast both Kelly and John C. Reilly in leading roles. Brilliant!

Thanks for your contribution Dustin. "John" on IGC was no gentleman and his behavior was inappropriate. By the way, getting precise dates for address changes may seem pedantic...unless you're trying to date a series of guns. Try it sometime. It's harder than you think.

============ *64 1869-76: Reilly and the American Market TEXT ============

*64 1869-76: Reilly and the American Market

From as early as 1868 Reilly evinced an interest in penetrating the American market.*64a He acquired an American agent (Joseph Grubbs, Philadelphia),*64b and had his guns advertised in mail order catalogs.*64c At the 1876 Philadelphia centennial*64d he exhibited along side very high-standard British guns*64e, and won a medal which was later displayed on his post 1897 case labels.*64f

========== *64 1869-76: Reilly and the American Market END TEXT ==========

Note: It's a shame that I can't post the pictures of these labels and analysis. It's good history and instructive. Will try to do it in another life.
======== *65 1868-76: New Labels and Descriptions TEXT =========

*65 1868-76: New Labels and Descriptions

. . . . .1869: New Description - Gun and Rifle Manufacturers: Around 1869 EM changed the description of the company in print journal ads to "Gun and Rifle Manufacturers" (as did many other English gun makers).*65a This description was occasionally but not usually used on some trade/case labels for the next 15 years.*65b



. . . . .There are two extant guns with this phrase on the ribs or barrels:
. . . . . . . . . .-- SN 25572, a .450 BPE SxS U-L hammer gun rifle dated 1883 with “To their Majesties Kings of Spain and Portugal.”*65c
. . . . . . . . . .-- SN 26537, a .450 BPE SxS U-L hammer gun rifle (later rebored as a 20 gauge shotgun) dated 1884.*65d

. . . . .The phrase also appeared on some of his post February 1868 (opening of rue Scribe) long-gun presentation cases.*65e

. . . . .1868: New label for handguns: Shortly after the 1867 Paris exposition for a short time he used a different label for revolvers with only the 315 Oxford Street address, without the scollops or the medals, advertising “Breech Loading Gun and Rifle Manufacturers," which included the phrase, "By appointment to his majesty emperor Napoleon III.*65f. The label was only used for a few years.



. . . . .1876: New outlier Label for 502 New Oxford St: In 1876 an outlier Reilly trade label for 502 New Oxford Street began advertising a connection to the King of Portugal*65g echoed by advertisements in the print press.*65h (Only two examples of this case label have so far been found).



. . . . .1876: New Label for 315 Oxford Street: Also around 1876 315 Oxford Street got its own label back; it was slightly different from the classic 502 label, without scollops and with no scroll work at the bottom.*65i



====== *65 1868-76: New Labels and Descriptions END TEXT =======