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#612684 03/19/22 04:28 PM
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What was the standard or “usual” factory constriction for a modified choked Winchester 16 gauge? Guns in question are are two Model 12’s, one from 1926, the other one 1936 and one model 1897 circa 1914. All three guns seem to be original and un-altered, all three a marked as “Mod” on the barrels.

All three guns are measuring chokes that are what would normally be considered to be in the IC/Skeet 1 range. Two model 12’s are .008 and the 1897 is .009.
Bore diameters are almost identical…..668 on the 1897, .669 on the 1936, .668 on the 1926.

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This is all I have, and things may certainly have changed between 1914 and the publication of Jack O'Connor's The Shotgun Book in 1965
16 gauge bore and choke
……..…..……Browning……….Remington…….Winchester
Bore………...…0.665”…………..0.673”…………..0.664”
Full Choke…..0.037”…………..0.033”…………..0.031”
Modified….….0.025”…………..0.017”…………..0.016”
Imp. Cyl..…..0.016”…………..0.008”……..……0.007”

Certainly the British standard for "Half-choke" would be 1/2 of the Full constriction

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The only modified choke 16-gauge Winchester I have is a NIB very late Model 12 Standard Grade and the choke measures .020". Your chokes are closer to my 1953 Model 12 16-gauge that is marked imp. cyl.

Last edited by Researcher; 03/19/22 07:14 PM.
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Originally Posted by Researcher
The only modified choke 16-gauge Winchester I have is a NIB very late Model 12 Standard Grade and the choke measures .020". Your chokes are closer to my 1953 Model 12 16-gauge that is marked imp. cyl.

What are the bore diameters on your 2 model 12’s?

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Schwing's Model 21 book lists 16 ga. Model 21 modified choke constriction as .010" to .015".

Note that he lists variance in bore diameter of (.005") for all gauges & choke constriction variance of (.002 to .010") depending on gauge & choke.

My assumption is that choke constriction changed with improvements in shotshells.

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According to all I've learned and seen over the years I would not expect .008" and .009" constrictions to throw modified patterns out of a 16 gauge, Dustin. In a 16 gauge I consider modified constrictions to be in the .013" to .018" range. In a 16, .008" to .009" would usually be considered IC.


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Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
According to all I've learned and seen over the years I would not expect .008" and .009" constrictions to throw modified patterns out of a 16 gauge, Dustin. In a 16 gauge I consider modified constrictions to be in the .013" to .018" range. In a 16, .008" to .009" would usually be considered IC.

Ya. Believe me, I get it. These guns throw tight, modified patterns. I patterned all three of them years ago. I’ve been using them for years too. And the weird thing is, I’ve never actually measured the chokes until today. I only did that because after a round of clays, shooting the 1936 Model 12, a guy remarked “damn, that thing really smokes those targets”. They not only smoke targets, they smoke birds too. I use these guns on sharptails, sage grouse and pheasants, etc. when I need guns with more choke. They pattern way too tight for close work. I’ve smashed more than a few birds with these guns at 35+ yards and they were mushed, I’m talking all bones broken and a good amount of meat destroyed. Definitely indicative of a fairly dense, down range pattern. A gun /choke combo throwing skeet or IC patterns isn’t going to do that kind of damage.
With these measured constrictions, I can’t believe they throw patterns like they do, that’s what made me curious. I honestly figured they’d measure out to a full or improved modified type numerical constriction.🤷🏽‍♂️ The patterns tell a different story.
I also realized that the choke section in the bore is pretty short, maybe 2.5” at most. A vintage Remington I own also has a relatively short choke section.

Like I mentioned in my original post….these measured constrictions are not what I or anyone else would expect a Winchester factory cut, modified choke to be.

I’m hoping someone out there will measure their earlier model 12 16’s and see what they find out!!

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I apologize if I'm overstating the obvious but, don't forget to allow for the dense center core of the patterns. When you center a bird with even a SK or IC choke the target will be smoke, even at 30 yards. I know how hard it is to allow for centering a bird in a pattern as opposed to fringing it, because we can't center them all the time, with any gun. But ....... with some guns it just seems easier to do that, and with those guns it seems like we can get by with less constriction.

Unless we're having a bad day. Then all "rules" are out the window!


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I have found Winchester guns to be slightly more open bored, with less constriction, than others of the same choke. Heard a Winchester shooting rep say Winchester bored them that way so men hit more birds, not fewer birds harder. With good ammunition they thought it was more important to put shot some into every bird, than a lot of shot into a few birds. For the life of me, I can not remember that Reps name, it was the fellow who followed Herb Parson who died in 1959. That had to be 1962-1963 time frame. Also note in that time frame it was before heavy use of plastic wads, which I think keep patterns too tight in some guns. If your pattern is optimized for 30-45 yards shots by plastic wads and tight choke, and you can not hit birds at those ranges consistently, you have a gun which hits hard, but not often.

Anyways the pattern board does not lie and it sounds like your gun has that sweet spot in choke to bore we all wish for. Just a fair warning, never measure or pattern chokes of a .410 too much. It can mess your your mind and confidence. DAHIK, BTDT.

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Originally Posted by KY Jon
I have found Winchester guns to be slightly more open bored, with less constriction, than others of the same choke. Heard a Winchester shooting rep say Winchester bored them that way so men hit more birds, not fewer birds harder. With good ammunition they thought it was more important to put shot some into every bird, than a lot of shot into a few birds. For the life of me, I can not remember that Reps name, it was the fellow who followed Herb Parson who died in 1959. That had to be 1962-1963 time frame. Also note in that time frame it was before heavy use of plastic wads, which I think keep patterns too tight in some guns. If your pattern is optimized for 30-45 yards shots by plastic wads and tight choke, and you can not hit birds at those ranges consistently, you have a gun which hits hard, but not often.

Anyways the pattern board does not lie and it sounds like your gun has that sweet spot in choke to bore we all wish for. Just a fair warning, never measure or pattern chokes of a .410 too much. It can mess your your mind and confidence. DAHIK, BTDT.

Interesting. Might be on to something here. A friend who owns two unmolested 16 gauge Model 21’s, both choked Mod/Full, one gun is from 1936, the other 1950 both of those guns Mod chokes are bored at .010. The full chokes measure at .025.
The gentleman who owns these two 21’s has done extensive pattern testing. He’s a very knowledgeable guy. He tells me his .010 Winchester cut chokes are absolutely throwing dense modified patterns!

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