doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers

===============*11 1847: Change in numbering FOOTNOTES ===================
Note: There are a series of posts early in the Reilly line explaining how the conclusion that the Reilly's skipped 5000 serial numbers was arrived at and documenting this further. Several publications had mentioned this possibility including a couple of magazine articles, one by Terry Weiland, but they generally said the jump was from "4000" to "8000". This Reilly line research confirmed the jump but refined it to "3350" to "8350" based on extant/known guns.

*11 1847: Change in the Main-Line Numbering Chronology - 3350 Jumps to 8350

. . . . .*11a – SN 3329 - 10 gauge SxS percussion rifle with Joseph Charles Reilly, 316 High Holburn, London on the rib London" on the rib. Photo from Christies.


. . . . .*11b – SN 8378 - SxS 12 bore muzzle-loading shotgun. It has "J.C. Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London" on the rib. Removed from Holborn” on label. Photo from probusauktioner (Sweden)


. . . . .*11c – SN 8463 - .390 cal SxS muzzle loader rifle. “Joseph Charles Reilly, Gun Maker, 502 New Oxford Street, London, and Removed from Holborn” on label. Photo James Julia



=============*11 1847: Change in numbering END FOOTNOTES =================

=============== *12 1846-57: J.C. 7000 Series TEXT ===============

*12 1846-1857: J.C. Reilly 7000 Series Numbering Chronology

Preceding this move to New Oxford Street, around early 1846, perhaps anticipating the (planned) change in the main serial number chronology, J.C. Reilly appears to have kept a series of numbers for himself, called for simplicity the J.C. "7000" series. He numbered about 1200 guns over the next 11 years in this series beginning around SN 7000 and ending around 8200 when he retired in 1857.

JC Reilly sometimes (but not always) put his full name or initials on the ribs of these serial numbers but with the 502 New Oxford Street address; yet the trade/case labels with "Reilly" as the firm's name and the advertisements/publicity remained the same for the "8350 main-line series and the J.C. "7000" series.

. . .-- SN 7021 is the first extant SN'd gun in the JC "7000" series, a 20 bore single barrel boy’s percussion shotgun. It has " Reilly, London" on the barrel and was probably numbered in early 1846.*12a

. . .-- SN 7023 is the second extant SN'd gun in the JC "7000" series, an 11 bore SxS percussion shotgun. It has "J.C. Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London" on the rib and was probably numbered in early 1846.*12b

. . .-- SN 7201, a .577 percussion single barrel rifle, was the first in the J.C. 7000 series with the new "Joseph Charles Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London" address on the barrel, probably numbered around September 1847. It has the old style "J.C. Reilly" trade label with the new 502 New Oxford Street address and also with "Removed from Holborn." *12c

. . .-- SN 8186 is the last extant gun in the 7000 series (no doubt made in late summer 1857). It's an elegant .650 mimi ball single barrel muzzle-loader rifle engraved Reilly, New Oxford Street, London, with "Vini, Vidi, Vici" on the barrel (see below). *12d

============= *12 1846-57: J.C. 7000 Series END TEXT =============

============= *12 1846-57: J.C. 7000 Series FOOTNOTES =============

*12 1846-1857: J.C. Reilly 7000 Series Numbering Chronology

. . . . .*12a – SN 7021 - 20 bore single barrel boy’s percussion shotgun. Photo from Holts



. . . . .*12b – SN 7023 - 11 bore SxS percussion shotgun. It has "J.C. Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London" on the rib. Photo from Holts..


. . . . .*12c – SN 7201 - .577 percussion single barrel rifle, with the new label "Joseph Charles Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London". Photo from Anderson & Garland, Newcastle.



. . . . .*12d – SN 8186 - .650 mimi ball single barrel muzzle-loader rifle engraved Reilly, New Oxford Street, London, with "Vini, Vidi, Vici" on the barrel: (small dove-tailed blade fore-sight, elevating folding ladder rear-sight with additional standing notch and when folded concealing the Reilly motto 'VENI VIDI VICI' - I came, I saw, I conquered). (Photo from Holts)



=========== *12 1846-57: J.C. 7000 Series END FOOTNOTES ===========

=========== *13 1840-1856: Outlier serial numbers TEXT ===========

*13 Outlier J.C. serial numbered guns, 1840-1856

There are outlier SN'd guns associated with JC which do not fit any sort of pattern, illustrating the sometime quirkiness of JC Reilly.

. . .-- SN 4573 - c1841, a 7 gauge, smoothbore, short single barrel, dangerous game gun with "J.C. Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London" on the barrel. The gun appears to be from the 1842-1844 timeframe.*13a

. . .-- SN 2008 - c1850-56, a 14 bore SxS muzzle-loader shotgun with "Joseph Charles Reilly, New Oxford Street, London" on the rib and per below bore size stamped on the barrel. The address would date it between April 1847 to circa September 1857 when J.C. retired; The gun, however, looks to be late 1840's-early 1850's.*13b

. . .-- SN 3514 - 1856-1859, a 13 bore SxS percussion shotgun with "Reilly, New Oxford Street, London" on the rib, apparently made (per the trade label in the case).*13c

========= *13 1840-1856: Outlier serial numbers END TEXT =========

=========== *13 1840-1856: Outlier serial numbers FOOTNOTES ===========

*13 Outlier J.C. serial numbered guns, 1840-1856

. . . . .*13a - SN 4573 - 7 gauge, smoothbore, short single barrel, dangerous game gun with "J.C. Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London". Photo from Amoskeog.


. . . . .*13b - SN 2008 - 14 bore SxS muzzle-loader shotgun with "Joseph Charles Reilly, New Oxford Street, London". (Photo from Wootang on this site)



. . . . .*13c - SN 3514 - 13 bore SxS percussion shotgun with "Reilly, New Oxford Street, London. Photo from Guntrader.com



=========== *13 1840-1856: Outlier serial numbers END FOOTNOTES ===========

And there is still no evidence that Reilly had a fairly large gun manufacturing facility that had upwards of 300 people employed in the production of all manner of firearms.

I keep checking in to see if something has been found, since we were promised substantive evidence. But what we get is still more usage of the word gunmaker as found in a number of old advertisments. The longer this goes on, the more accurate this following assessment appears to be:


We had a guy right here on this forum who bragged for years about his "award winning wines". As it turned out, he wasn't a wine maker at all. He had a little vineyard of a couple acres, and was the smallest supplier of grapes that were purchased by an actual wine making company that did all of the processing, fermenting, bottling, and sales. Then, as now, there are people who are prone to exaggerating their position and place in life. And nowhere has this behavior been seen more frequently than in advertising claims. The false and absurdly questionable claims made by many in the firearms business are no exception.


Well... I suppose so... if one is impressed by sheer volume, with little regard for accuracy and analysis. For instance, look at this statement. Not many guys even live to be 90, let alone are working gunmakers for 90 years:


But that's nothing compared to Methusela of the Bible, so it must be true. Something else that literally jumped out at me is the information about Reilly's business at 502 New Oxford Street. The "research" describes it as a "huge" building of 10,000 square feet. That sounds pretty big, unless you are even a little bit familiar with manufacturing operations that employ around 300 employees. In reality, that would be extremely small, especially for a building that also contained offices and retail sales space. Do the math, and divide 10,000 sq. ft. by 300 employees. You get a work area of 33.33 sq. ft. per employee. That's little more than 5 by 6 feet per man. And that small closet sized area per man would have to include hand tools, barrel boring machinery, other machinery, work benches, vises, jigs and fixtures, parts inventory, stock blanks, bluing, case hardening, and wood finishing facilities, partially finished guns of all descriptions, along with completed guns and merchandise for sale... and our poor guy with less room to turn around than a canned sardine.

Our undaunted researcher qualifies this with unfounded claims that complete guns were being built in London in that era in shops the size of a kitchen. But just how many kitchens are only 33 sq. ft., other than in a small camping trailer???

Then take a close look at the pictures that are alleged to be of this building at 502 New Oxford St. It is clearly evident that they aren't even the same building. The entire facade is different. The architecture is totally different. And neither appears like they would accommodate anywhere near 300 employees.




But hope springs eternal with 90 percent left to come... unless Dave's server crashes from another 730 pages of copy and paste photos, advertisements with highlighted words, and lots of conjecture.

=============== 502 (16) New Oxford Street – A response ================

Thank you for your observation Bill...though it as usual took the form of a polemical rant rather than an academic query. This topic was addressed in detail on the Reilly line. The following is for those who have not, cannot, or have refused to read it:

1. Historical footprint: Buildings change, facades are redone, buildings are torn down and rebuilt. Clearly the modern building at 16 New Oxford Street is a story taller than the one pictured in 1885. What does not change however is the footprint. The Reilly building in whatever form it was, which was held as a freehold, was huge for London and it likely existed in the re-facaded 1885 photo form until it was sold ih 1897. It's interesting however, that the fundamental layout remains to this day which makes one wonder whether the original building is still there.

2. London “factories” and “workshops”: London was a city of small shops. Here is a description of capitalism in London based on the 1851 census (which was going to be address in chapter 16):

*16e - Number of employees: London: A Social History:


As an example Purdey operated out of two buildings at 314 and 315 Oxford Street from 1820’s to 1881. It was called “314 ½” as a compromise. There is not one existing photo of that building according to the Purdey historian. (This would mean it didn't exist according to some knowledgeable posters). However Here is a picture I extracted and sent to them:

Reilly’s 315 Oxford Street (post 1858) and Purdey’s 314 ½ Oxford Street from an 1883 photo:


Here is the modern building for Reilly 315 Oxford Street and Purdey at 314 ½ Oxford Street:



The buildings are not the same – they are less tall for sure. (Reily's son fell from the top floor of 277 and died in 1895). But take a look at the footprint for Purdey. That building for 50 years was where Purdey built his guns, sold and fitted his guns, and was the administration headquarters.
That SIR is a London FACTORY!

3. Number of Reilly workers in 1851. We have no idea how many workers Reilly employeed in 1851. The gun business was highly cyclical – when a big order came in, workers were added. On the Process of Small Arms Manufacturer, 1870

. . .-- In 1881 Reilly told the census taker he employeed 300 men (Greener 140). But Reilly at that time had two large workshops (he had only one building in 1851), a store in Paris and may have had concerns or a partnership of sorts in Birmingham. And he had just expanded his business dramatically from making 650 numbered guns in the 1870’s to over 1,000.
But sir, 1851 is NOT 1881...GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!

4. "Keith" and his credibility: A word about “Keith" (Bill from Pennsylvania). He may know something about American guns but that’s difficult to know because he spends so much time spewing hate and honing his “enemies list.” What is clear from several posts on this line is that he knows nothing about English guns or the London gun trade and he has no interest in reading what has been written, learning, or asking coherent questions.

He has disrupted dozens of lines and is simply not credible as an observer or a scholar. I won’t bother to respond to him again.

Gene Williams

However, I have sent him my telephone number. He can call to discuss the above...or I would gladly welcome him in McLean or I could drive up to Pennsylvania for a face to face to clear the air. One somehow doubts he will.

Edit: I have added pictures of Purdey factory at 314 1/2 Oxford Street and Lang at 22 Cockspur Street to the above post on Reilly's new 502 New Oxford Street, so that people not familiar with the London gun scene can understand. Thanks Bill for providing the example.

============*14 Hypothetical 5500 series TEXT ============

*14 Hypothetical J.C. "5500" Serial Number series early/mid 1840's:

There are two (possibly four) extant SxS percussion guns from apparently the mid-1840's which are very similar; It may be that J.C. Reilly had a 5500 serial number series of some sort; more guns are needed to establish this point. One wonders whether this series might be connected to 4573 (above); if so it would add a good 1,000 guns to the total Reilly made.

However there is a second possibility to account for the below serial numbers; It is possible that J.C. and E.M. split their gun numbering series around 1844 well before the move to Oxford Street, E.M. keeping the 3000 series and jumping it to 8350 in 1847 and J.C. numbering guns with the 4500-5500 series and jumping those numbers to the 7000 series in 1846; again more guns are needed to establish this point.

. . .- - SN 5512 – 1845-47?, a 16 bore SxS muzzle loader shotgun, which has “J.C. Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London now 502 New Oxford Street” on the rib, the only gun found so far with both addresses and it would appear numbered around the time of the move. However, the two addresses are printed a slightly different font indicating 5512 may have been brought in for maintenance after the March 1847 move and re-engraved at that time; *14a

. . .-- SN 5580 – 1845-47?, a 12 bore SxS muzzle loader shotgun, which has “J.C. Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London” on the rib, (engraving and format very similar to 5512 above); *14b

. . .-- SN xxxx – 1845-47?, The engraving on 5512 and 5580 match remarkably to a 12 bore SxS percussion gun advertised by Christies with “J.C. Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London” on the rib; The SN was unpublished, however, it could be part of this possible “5500 series.” *14c

. . .-- SN yyyy – 1845-47?, The engraving on 5512 and 5580 also match quite well a 16 bore Reilly SxS percussion gun with “Reilly, 316, High Holborn, London” on the rib.*14d

. . .-- SN 5991 – 1847-48?, a 17 bore SxS percussion rifle, serial numbered “5991” on the barrels. “991” is found on forend stock, hammers and ramrod. “Reilly, New Oxford Street, London” is engraved on the rib; “Reilly, London” on the side plates. The case has a post December 1847 Reilly label pasted over a Lang label from 7 Haymarket Street, from circa 1845-1848. If this serial number is part of the hypotheical “5500” JC series, then it may indicate that the series was continued for some reason into the late 1840’s ad used along-side the new “7000” series. *14e

============*14 Hypothetical 5500 series END TEXT ============

============*14 Hypothetical 5500 series FOOTNOTES ============

*14 Hypothetical J.C. "5500" number series early/mid 1840's:

. . . . .*14a - SN 512 – 1845-47?, 16 bore SxS muzzle loader shotgun, which has “J.C. Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London now 502 New Oxford Street” (the two fonts are slightly different indicating the gun could have been made at 316 but brought back for maintance after the move to 502. Photo private owner.




. . . . .*14b - SN 5580 – 1845-47?, 12 bore SxS muzzle loader shotgun, which has “J.C. Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London”. Photo from Holts.


. . . . .*14c - SN xxxx – 1845-47?, 12 bore SxS percussion gun advertised by Christies with “J.C. Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London”. Photo frome Christies.


. . . . .*14d - SN yyyy – 1845-47?, 16 bore SxS percussion gun advertised by Bruun-Ramussen with “J.C. Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London”. Photo Swedish auction.


============*14 Hypothetical 5500 series END FOOTNOTES ============

============*15 New Label Dec 1847 - 1856 TEXT ============

*15 December 1847 - 1856: New Label for 502 New Oxford-Street

Soon after the move, possibly around December 1847, the trade label changed to "Reilly, Gun Maker." It was rectangular shaped with scolloped corners and featured a sketch of 502 New Oxford Street. *15a



-- One must wonder if E.M. Reilly designed this new label. He was 30 years old at this time and he consistently demonstrated a better marketing touch, a more modern approach, more imagination and more organization than his father. Note the new "carney-barker" fonts which at the time were in fashion and compare the label to the bland, formal business card style of his father.

-- The "Gun Maker" font on the new label looks to have been deliberately carried over from the old 316 High Holborn label. It is in a sort of old English or Germanic style. That particular font continued to be used in various forms until the company declared bankruptcy in 1912.

-- The bottom line is interesting; It advertises “Large assortment always ready for India and emigrants to All Parts of the Universe.” E.M. truly had grand ambitions far beyond his time.

============*15 New Label Dec 1847 - 1856 END TEXT ============