doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com J. Graham matched pair with pics looking for info

Hi all

I have recently come into possession of a matched pair of J. Graham shotguns.
I have all the info on J.Graham of Inverness that i need, this posting is more about obtaining any more info about the guns themselves. I am sure that some of you experts may have some tidbits of info.

This pair are superposed, sidelocks , fully engraved and I am figuring somewhat rare, I am deducing from my research that these guns were manufactured between 1925 and 1950. They are in extremely fine condition, I have not been able to locate others of similar quality and configuration. Any information, other than the obvious, would be appreciated.

There is not a lot of information on early British superposed guns. Pics can be viewed on my website at the link below

https://oldguns.ca/british-sporting-arms-1-1

last item on the page......

Thx in advance.

Superposed would be rare. There is a book on the British over under guns. Have you been able to compare yours with any there ?

remarkable condition. Well you can see the lockup is similar to a sxs and this variant of O/U wasn't very popular, perhaps due to its tall action. Once Boss and Woodward came out with their sleek O/U's, this style lost out. I think Purdey only made a handfull of O/U in a similar style despite requests for a O/U gun.

I have not been able to compare them with anything in the books I have.

Built to E C Green design perhaps ? Quality guns whoever made them!

It sure would be nice to figure out who made them. Obviously, by the time these were made Graham was solely a retail store, so obviously it was not him.
The engraving is some of the finest I have ever encountered.

There will be some marks somewhere on them to identify someone in all probability.They look E C Green based but I don`t know when they ceased production of guns ...

Graham acquired that pair from Charles Lancaster. The priapic bar is diagnostic and the treatment of the fences is identical to extant Lancaster O/U's. Now whether they were made in London is a moot point. Geoffrey Boothroyd always insisted that A. A. Thorn (Charles Lancaster) brought in his O/U's from Germany then anglicized them with chisel and file.

Written in haste

Doug Tate

well well well, Mr. Tate, after reviewing some charles lancaster o/u I do believe you have something there.

Brilliant!

Not only are they a perfect match, but I had always thought they looked reminiscent of a German made shotgun, makes perfect sense....

thx so much for your perspective.

I wonder, would Charles have put his mark anywhere on these guns....?

I am willing to believe those lovely guns were made in Germany. Replace the scroll engraving with oak leaf & acorn . . .

check out this image from guns international.......very close in appearance.


https://images.gunsinternational.co...Gun_101550378_64049_67C11C48182CA5B2.jpg

That's a beautiful pair of guns. British over unders are much less popular that their side-by-sides.
A number of years ago I had a Graham boxlock ejector (side-by-side) and it was superbly made and handled well in the field.

from diggory's library....https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/phallic-lancasters

best regards,

tom

wow Grey beard thx for the link.

thats my lock for sure, I now have to go down and see if they are in fact hand detachable..........?

not sure what protruding pin he was talking about.

Daryl, you are correct, the book is written by Geoffrey Boothroyd , title "The British over -and under and it is indicated that Lancaster O/U are from German Origine.
Page 16. So Mister Douglas Tate is correct in what he wrote.
Cheers, Marc.

I looked at my locks and see that they are an exact duplication of the ones in Diggory's picture in the article on Lancaster o/u locks.
Although they do not appear to be the quick release plates, mine have a machine screw in the same place. I assume they would come apart by removing that screw.

Wow - cool guns. Thank you for sharing.

Here's another version of this design by Lancaster:

https://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?lid=64732906

From the listing for that gun:

"According to Geoffrey & Susan Boothroyd in their book “The British Over-And-Under Shotgun” (Chapter 16), H.A.A. Thorn, the then owner of Charles Lancaster, took out a patent (No. 12,057 of May 14, 1910) for "providing double-barrelled guns, of the kind having superposed barrels, with ejector mechanism". Expanding on the fact that the patent is for ejectors only, a letter published in "The Field" magazine on June 30, 1910 is mentioned that confirms the guns were purchased ‘in the white’ from Germany and were finished and fitted with ejectors by Lancaster in London."

I've seen similar phallic-style locks on other Lancasters. They were all SxSs, and I don't believe the locks had a quick- or easy-detachable feature.

BTW: Here's the full GI listing for the sidelock shown above:
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...2-1-2-quot-game-gun.cfm?gun_id=101550378

OWD

You will search in vain for a maker's trade mark on the Graham pair. The last thing the manufacturers wanted the end user to know was who built them. In the event I'm wrong I would v. much like to hear from you.

You can view that exact Lancaster O/U, serial number 13,747, shown on the Guns International site in a photo essay I wrote captions for called "How the Brits Stack Up" which appeared in the July/Aug 1994 issue of SHOOTING SPORTSMAN. In the intervening 28 years since I have learnt nowt about Lancaster O/U's.

If you would like to see the inside of a Lancaster O/U sidelock there's a fair to good illustration (figure 4) on page 157 of Don Masters Atkin Grant & Lang.

Doug

Hello Doug, out of curiosity would these guns be classified British or German? I realise historically that guns built in the UK , with foreign tubes, were classed British, but these Lancasters appear to have a great percentage of foreign build. Thanks for input thus far. Regards ,mrwmartin

Anyone know if the $35,500 price tag, on that gun mentioned above (13,747), is anywhere near a reasonable figure....nice gun but seems pretty optimistic?


Quote from Doug.....

"You can view that exact Lancaster O/U, serial number 13,747, shown on the Guns International site in a photo essay I wrote captions for called "How the Brits Stack Up" which appeared in the July/Aug 1994 issue of SHOOTING SPORTSMAN. In the intervening 28 years since I have learnt nowt about Lancaster O/U's."

....so...does anyone have a likely candidate for the actual maker of them in Germany? I assume they sold them in their own country....

Looks very Merkel-ish to me..........

darn I wish I had a copy of Doug's article from field and stream.....!!!!

Well , I have been doing quite a bit of research on my Lancaster pair retailed by J. Graham.
I am attempting to verify a couple of things.

1. I have read that Lancaster only made a dozen over under side lock shotguns.........does anyone know where I can verify that information...?

2. and if in fact Lancaster only made 12 of these guns, would it be possible to have the records checked for whom these guns were made for and sold to to verify the J.Graham purchase....? a long shot I'm sure but maybe possible.

any help would be much appreciated.

What is the barrel length. From my experience most of Graham's doubles were 25" guns. I recently looked at a 16 bore Lancaster U/O at a local dealer here in N.C..
I will say they are stunning guns.

Gorgeous guns. I don't like most O/U's and yours are one of the very I have even seen that I've liked