doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com RST status?

Anyone heard any updates as far as when they will be back producing? Southern will be coming up in April and having them not producing ammo will be a killer for folks who don't reload.

I talked to Morris Baker a few days ago and he does not predict ammunition availability any time soon. Look at the RST website for changes. As far as the Southern goes, what you see is what you get. Bring ammo for whatever gun you plan to shoot.

What’s the status of Polywad?

Jay Menefee sold the company, which soon afterwards ceased production (pre-Covid19). I no longer have a number for him but, if someone does, I'll be glad to call him and see if he has any information on whether or not the company will ever be functional again.

Yeah, I'm (im)patiently waiting for 2.5" 16ga 7/8ox. to come available again. I have a decent supply of Gamebore Regal 1oz, but I feel they're a little too hot for me (I was surprised how much they recoil in a 6.5# gun).

I would expect that when RST gets back to running ammo, they'll be a max. order per person for a while. Which would be good, because after this shortage anyone with the means will want to buy multiple cases (myself included) but that would only serve to cripple the recovery.

I have paid a premium to get a few flats in from the UK, really glad I did though. Shocked at the retail price of game loads in the UK as well, much higher than in the past.

I'll just suck it up though. I love hunting over my dogs far too much to fret over the cost of shells.

Well I'm down to my last 6 boxes of 12 ga, 2 1/2" shells. Once they are gone, I'll be limited to a 16 gauge which does shoot 2 3/4 and a 20 gauge for which I have about 8 boxes of 2 1/2 left. I have a French 12 bore SxS chambered for 2 1/2. However, there's a lot of metal on those barrels and I'm wondering if I could safely shoot low-pressure 2 3/4" shells out of it. I suspect I could.

I bought a 2.75 chambered nitro-proofed Tolley SLE to use with the Fiochhi low recoil training loads (or similar shells) and cut down on ammo costs. Those are now impossible to find as well. Fortunately, there are other options and this gun digests them without issue.

In any event, the whole point was to avoid being limited with vintage guns to RST, the only reliable supplier.

Bell did some test with longer shells and they didn't raise pressure very much at all. I quit measuring my chambers quite a while ago, but then I shoot my own, low pressure reloads. If pressures go up 500, or even a 1000, I don't have to worry about it.

Stan, PM sent.

No idea when they will be back in production, but I expect at first that sales will be to vendors/people who buy by the pallet. (And they probably have contracts with these that pre-date Covid)

Cheddite primers are starting to show up and at prices lower than American makers. Last I saw was $48/thousand with a 5000 primer limit plus hazmat from BPI. Primed Cheddite hulls are also available. Some powders are available. The biggest problem right now if one was going to get into shotgun reloading is probably bird shot.

A Lee Load All press, a roll crimper attachment that goes into a drill press or drill and a hull trimmer I can buy 2 3/4 hulls, cut them down to 2 1/2" and once that is done I can make 2-3 boxes an hour. That's maybe $150 of equipment.

Some years ago, a shooter from a country in which reloading supplies were unavailable and/or prohibited posted his method for firing 2 3/4" shells in a 16-gauge short-chambered Browning auto. As you probably know, such a gun will fire a 2 3/4" shell but the ejection port is too short for proper ejection. He put the unfired factory shell in a drill press and used a small hole saw to make a circular weak spot in the end of the cartridge. Upon firing, the plastic circle went downrange like an overshot wad and the shortened empty ejected cleanly.

This subject of shooting 2 3/4” hulls in 2 1/2” chambers is a recurring question on this board. But perhaps it’s not bad to revisit it every once in a while. As mentioned above pressure tests shooting the longer hulls in short chambered guns did not raise pressures significantly, only 500 to 1,000 psi. That’s normally not a significant amount of pressure. And long ago, when American makers still cut chambers 2 5/8” they recommended using 2 3/4” shells. They wanted to hull to open part way into the forcing cone, believing the longer hull would provide a better gas seal than the shorter. Most of my doubles are damascus barreled with short chambers and I only shoot 2 3/4” in all of them. Never a problem. If my 2 3/4” hull mouths are not frayed after firing I am comfortable that the hull mouth remained in the forcing cone and is safe.

However, one word of extreme caution: regardless of hull length be sure the pressures, velocities, and payloads are within the design limits the gun was made for.

Thanks Joe. I have a 12 gauge 30" Damascus barreled Reilly that has good metal, but I was a little loath to try the longer shells in it. My Saint-Etienne 12 gauge with 2 5/8" chambers has steel barrels, probably from the late 1920's and should be ok. It's 8 ounces heavier than the Damascus as well. I'll give both a try....carefully.

I'm putting a modern gun (Iside 16) on special order this week, partly so I can shoot my stash of modern ammo and not have to worry about 2.5" shells for my Husky hammer gun and my Lefever 12. Good to have options. That said, once I find some universal, I'll be able to reload enough shorties to keep me going for quite a while. My local big box said they had some a couple weeks ago, and to keep checking back weekly. If the pandemic eases up, this should alleviate itself come spring time I should think.

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=400821

Thinking of: 12 gauge 2 3/4" Winchester AA extra lite shell, 1145 fps, 1 oz, 7 1/2 shot. If they can be found,
But reading the comments in the above line, Federal hulls produce dramatically lower pressure than Winchester.

I'll repost Dr. Drew's chart with the black splotches eliminated:

Many thanks to Bill Johnson for scanning and sending "Long Shells in Short Chambers", Sherman Bell with technical assistance from Tom Armbrust in "Finding Out for Myself", Part V, Double Gun Journal, Winter 2001

The test barrel was a "heavy" Krieger barrel with piezo-electric transducer at 1" from the breech and an Oehler velocity gauge 2 5/16" from the breech.
Tests were performed:
1. 2 1/2" chamber with a 7/16" forcing cone - "British chamber" (BC)
2. 2 1/2" chamber with a 1 1/4" forcing cone - "Modified British chamber" (MBC)
3. 2 3/4" chamber with a 1" forcing cone - "American Chamber" (AC)
Each load was tested in each chamber at least 5 times.
No significant change in velocity was noted between the 3 test chambers
It was not unusual to have 300-600 psi spread between shots

LOADS
1. 7/8 oz. in Federal plastic hull at 1185 fps in the 2 3/4" chamber
2. 7/8 oz. in Estate plastic hull at 1206 fps
3. 1 oz. in Federal paper hull at 1137 fps
4. 1 1/8 oz. in Federal paper hull at 1120 fps
5. 1 oz. in Remington plastic hull at 1205 fps
6. 1 1/8 oz. in Winchester plastic hull at 1186 fps
7. 1 1/4 oz. in Federal plastic hull at 1091 fps
8. 1 1/4 oz. in Winchester plastic hull at 1136 fps
9. 1 1/8 oz. with GOEX FFFg in Federal paper at 1184 fps
10. 1 1/8 oz. Bismuth in Federal plastic at 1091 fps
I only include the standard target or game loads that were tested

��..BC--...MBC-....AC-..Difference BC vs AC
1)..5725--...5905-..4834--..891 psi
2)..6225--...6065-..5009--..1216 psi
3)..5865--...5325-..5263--..602 psi-.."long cones do reduce pressure"
4)..5845--...5665-..5058--..787 psi
5)..7805--...7845-..7577--..228 psi
6).11,125-.11,045-10,787-..338 psi
7)..6892--...6805-..5953--..939 psi
8)..8765--...8545-..7870--..895 psi
9)..5405--...5265-..4603--..802 psi
10).6765--...6365-..6380--..385 psi

Interpretation and caution:
1. Results in light British 12b or American small bore barrels may be different.
2. Results in YOUR barrel would require drilling the chamber for the transducer thereby destroying your gun.
3. Paper hulls with star crimps showed little difference compared to plastic hulls. NO roll crimp paper hulls were tested.
4. The increase in pressure comparing 1 oz., 1 1/8 oz., and 1 1/4 oz. loads was similar.
5. Longer cones MAY reduce pressure. This was NOT a comparison of standard 1" with 2 1/2" cones however.
6. "Shooting 2 3/4" shells in 2 1/2" chambers does make them produce more pressure-but in most cases it is less than a 1000 psi increase. I see no reason, related to safety, to modify an original 2 1/2" chambered gun to shoot 2 3/4" shells, if the 2 3/4" load you intend to use would develop pressure that is safe in that gun, when fired in a standard chamber!"
7. "We found that lengthening the forcing cone in a 2 1/2" chamber usually helps mitigate the pressure increase that comes from shooting 2 3/4" or 3" shells in the short chamber."
8. "Shooting heavy 2 3/4" loads in a light gun is a dumb thing to do. Shooting 3" magnum duck loads is even dumber."
9. This is not a study of the effect on RECOIL of shooting long shells in short chambers. Vintage 20g doubles may have chambers shorter than 2 1/2", and it has been my experience that recoil is markedly increased if 2 3/4" shells are used.

And this from Larry Brown in the same line:
One reason is the Winchester hull. Several of the other loads use Federal hulls, which give lower pressures. In the case of load #8, which also uses an AA hull, Bell compares it to a load in a Federal hull. The Winchester load produces almost 2,000 psi higher pressure at the breech, with 2 1/2 grains less powder. You can get lower pressure reloads with Winchester hulls, but you have to be selective when it comes to your choices of powder, wad, and primer.

RST main bottle neck apparently is lack of powder. Until that changes I do not think we will be seeing many shells. And I wonder what quantity they need? Is it a hundred pounds or several hundred pounds of multiple different powders.

I have been using the Kent Elite Low Recoil/Training loads for a few years now and think they are fantastic. The 3/4 oz. is in a true 2.5" case.
I've gone through around 20 cases and I have had no troubles breaking targets at any range I care to shoot at. I use them in all my vintage guns without hesitation.
RST isn't the only game in town.

https://kentcartridge.com/us/shotshell/elite-low-recoil-training

I've been using them as well and quite like both the performance and the price.

I can't find any of the Kent's

I suspect they’re about as common and available as RST’s, Gamebores, etc these days.

I found a site, a reputable dealer, with a number of boxes for sale of Federal 12 ga 2 3/4"., 7 1/2 shot, 1 1/8 oz 1145 fps muzzle velocity shells which should work in my old SxS's. WARNING: The boxes looked like they came out of a garage 50 years ago and one of the 10 boxes had only 9 shells in it. The seller reimbursed the cost of the missing shells but now I'm wondering how old this lot is? I'm keeping them because they cannot be found anywhere else. Just beware these days, people are pulling out stocks they had stored in garages and basements for years.

Gene, if there is no corrosion around the primers that you can see, shoot them, and have fun. I shot a number of old roll crimped, purple 16 ga. paper shells with a Sears and Roebuck head stamp, while shooting clays with Nitrah Sunday afternoon, and they broke clays just fine. I don't hesitate to use them. There's just something that is just right about using vintage shells in vintage guns ............. and they kill doves and quail same as the new ones. Sometimes I have to cull paper shells because they have swollen too large to chamber. But again, if there is no corrosion evident around the primers I have found them to be mostly reliable, and lots of fun to use.

They smell good, too.

Act Quickly, Gentlemen. You can order 7/8 oz 12 ga 2 1/2" flats for $150 from RST. Only size is 7.5 I am sure they won't last long! And a one flat limit apparently.

Thanks for the heads up!

How many shells does anyone use at this shoot to be so worried about the availability of RST loads?

It’s been the last 2 years. I need some 2 1/2” 16’s 5 or 6’s. Lead or bismuth

"How many shells does anyone use at this shoot to be so worried about the availability of RST loads?"

Who knows the total, but the assemblage will shoot thousands of shells over the three day event. Prior to the current ammo shortages, RST would arrive with a large trailer packed with cases of shot shell ammo in all gauges; they usually left empty.

If it doesn't rain so we can shoot every day my wife and I will shoot 750 to 800 cartridges, of which I'll shoot about 200 2.5 inch. If you've never been to the Southern you should come for the experience.

And they didn’t just have target loads. I’d get several cases for the upcoming hunting season

I would like very much to go. I have thought about it for a couple of years now since I grew up less than 100 miles from the location where it is held and still have a farm and house in NC. I had never heard a discussion on how many shells an individual would expend at the shoot. It sounds like it would be a blast (no pun intended!!).

RST is sold out again.....

Ordered some last night for my Higham

They only had 12’s , right?

Yep. Keep watching. They had some 16's a couple of months ago and I bought 4 flats of 3/4 oz ultra low pressure for a damascus barreled hammer gun.

It don’t take much if you ain’t got much

true enough, but I did grab one flat while the getting was good.

Good grab. I saw this two hours after your post yesterday and they were already gone.

I tried an hour after it was posted. All gone.

Best,
Ted

12ga back in stock!

All it takes to empty RST shelves is to post availability here. Gil

I looked, saw some was available but not in the shot size I’d like and I can’t buy a flat. I’m not ordering two boxes. Not complaining. I know it’s a problem. In the right shot sizes I’d instantly order a flat in any of the four main gauges.

I sure would like to hear a better explanation for their inability to have stock than “supply chain”. That’s obvious. I’m curious about what exactly is in short supply and why is it in short supply.

I ordered a flat of # 7 1/2. Thanks for the tip!

Carl, I read on the site today limit of two boxes per week. They sold you a flat???

1 flat a day limit, I picked up another today.

When I clicked on the icon offering a box for $17, the limit was two boxes per week. When I clicked on the icon offering a flat for $150, the limit was one flat per week.

I complained instead of clicking to buy. When I decided to get some, I was too late.

Crap. I didn't see this until just now. I'll have to start checking their website daily from now on.

Talked with Julie at RST this afternoon about a shell order. Clearly they have a large backlog and are doing their best to fill same. Said the problem at the moment is powder; apparently their primary powder supplier for most loads has been Hogdon, unfortunately Hogdon is working to fill a large military contract and has dried up as a powder source. Julie assured me that Morris is working diligently to get thru this most difficult period.

I clicked on the box icon. When I saw the two box limit, I didn’t think to click on the flat icon. Damn. Oh well, know I know.