doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com A Cameleopard from E. M. Reilly

[quote=Argo44]This is not meant to bring the Reilly line back; The book is still being edited.

However, For the first time in three years a Reilly gun has come to light which required extensive changes in the dating chart on p.57.
https://www.rockislandauction.com/d...raved-e-m-reilly-co-12-bore-double-rifle



This is SN 32760 , a 12 bore SxS rifle, top lever, BLE with 28" barrels. It is adorned with a plaque saying it was presented as a birthday present on 26 March 1891. This means it was likely ordered and numbered a couple of months earlier.

Comment by Parabola:-

Argo44 has just posted the above in his Reilly history thread.

The rifle is made with what appears to be an A&D (not a Facile Princeps) action but has a Greener side safety.

Re-proof at 70mm indicates relatively recent re-proof in the UK.

Perhaps I should not complain about the Auction cataloguing, when I have not the slightest intention of buying it, but I find the lack of detailed information disappointing.

There is no description of the type or condition of the rifling (assuming it was not smooth bored prior to reproof or was not made as a ball and shot gun?), type if any of top extension or picture of the proof/barrel markings.

If any of you plan to attend the view I would love to know if there are WWG stamps on the tubes?

Morning Parabola, RIA is very good at answering questions. I intend to ask them for the address on the rib and can add these questions to my query. I will say that Malcolm King had an excellent collection of Reilly's. All which have come across the block so far have been in very good condition.

Gene Williams

Thanks Gene,

A picture of the top of the action would be helpful if you can get them to add one?

Parabola, here are pictures provided by RIA. Gun was made at 16 New Oxford Street, London. You'll see it's a doll's-head extension. RIA did not answer the question about rifling but I assume it is fully rifled.

It has post 1887 London original proof marks. There are two Anson&Deeley patent use numbers - Deeley Patent Ejector use #2363 and the A&D box lock patent use #11096. This is odd. I assume that A&D box lock patent expired in 1889. But here it is a A&D patent use number on a 1991 gun. We've seen this before with Reilly's...barrels using a proof stamp or patent use number after the stamp had changed or the patent expired. Wonder if the barrels were proofed in 1889 and not used on a gun until 20 months later. Reilly did stock barrels to allow him to make faster deliveries. Hope the photos are what you are looking for.

Thanks Gene, that is very helpful.

The barrels would have been proofed on the action and at the same time, but the Patent use marks could have been applied to the action prior to barrels being fitted.

It was originally London proofed as an 11 bore.

As the Birmingham re-Proof is at 19.7mm I would bet that if it ever was rifled it is now a smooth bore.

I believe RIA sent photos of the wrong gun. There is no Reilly SN. Malcolm King had a number of high-quality Reilly's. A 10 bore box lock with no Reilly SN is not in this sale but they have been dribbling out his collection for a few months and this gun may be an upcoming one. I've written to confirm that the above photos are for Iten 744, SN 32760. Will let you know.

Gene,

I think you will find that they have photographed the right gun. It is not a 10 bore, as it is chambered for 12 bore cartridges in both iterations of proof.

It was clearly originally made “over bored” perhaps to use thin brass 12 bore cases, like a “chamberless gun”.

The Reilly serial number is probably on the guard tang.

Yes the SN is on the tang. But virtually every Reilly I've looked at also had it stamped on the water-table, barrels and fore-end. You are probably right looking at the sights and the 12/1 stamps. Still, I sent them a note. Would like to see the rifling.

Gene,

I have just noticed that there is a number (mostly obscured by their stand) stamped on the rear lower rib. It does not appear to match the Reilly number.

The T532 is probably a local (Transvaal?) registration mark of the sort applied to privately owned guns in various parts of the Empire.

I was wondering about that. T532 is also stamped in large numbers/letters on the barrel flats and that stamp appears to overlay or rather dwarf the original London proofs and the Brum reproof marks. Never seen that on a Reilly before so I assumed it was some sort of local registration number.

Interesting that it might be Transvaal. I was wondering why two Sons in the UK would give their 60 year old father a cannon for his birthday, which really couldn't be used very well in Britain. (Can you imaging using a 12 bore rifle on grouse?) The possible conclusion is this family lived in Africa and since it's 1891, before Brit colonization of Kenya, etc., probably South Africa.

Possible match for the father John Woods and sons John Pattan and Henry Clay? (I've no interest in pursuing this further on genealogy sites since it's not my gun but with the lead to the DOB and two sons' names, it's certainly possible. (John had four children - John, Henry and Maria - fourth not known:
https://www.myheritage.com/names/henry_woods

Henry Clay WOODS, 1858 - 1938 - (connection to Australia)
- Henry Clay WOODS was born on month day 1858, in birth place , to John WOODS and Alice WOODS (born KENNEDY) .
. . .-- John was born on March 26 1831, in Shropshire, England.
. . .-- Alice was born in 1831, in Kilkenny, Donegal, Ireland.
- Henry had 4 siblings: John Patten WOODS and 3 other siblings .
- Henry married Maria WOODS (born HUTCHINSON) on month day 1876, at age 18 in marriage place .
. . .-- Maria was born circa 1856, in Victoria, Australia.
- They had 11 children: William Henry WOODS , John WOODS and 9 other children .
- Henry passed away on month day 1938, at age 80 in death place .
- He was buried in burial place .

John Patton Woods, 1854 - 1935. (connection to Australia)
- John Patton Woods was born on month day 1854, in birth place , to John WOODS and Alice WOODS (born KENNEDY).
. . .-- John was born on March 26 1831, in Shropshire, England.
. . .-- Alice was born in 1831, in Kilkenny, Ireland, United Kingdom.
- John was baptized on month day 1854, in baptism place .
- John had 4 siblings: Maria Russell (born Woods) and 3 other siblings .
- John married Elizabeth Mary Woods (born Madden) on month day 1871, at age 17 in marriage place .
. . .-- Elizabeth was born on June 7 1853, in Jamberoo, NSW Australia.
- They had 15 children: Sarah Maria Nielsen Rossen (born Woods) , Alice Madden Murray (born Woods) and 13 other children .
- John lived in address .
- John passed away on month day 1935, at age 81 in death place .
He was buried in burial place .