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That is the under bolt. The small piece just above the under bolt is the stud/cam that connects the top lever to the under bolt.

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Gotcha, thanks.


May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Dustin,

Thank you for your kind comments and the very helpful “exploded view” of your lovely G gun.

You are quite right to describe the part as a cocking limb as it is of one piece with the tumbler.

I will carefully avoid tinkering with the works, or any dismantling at all if I can help it. I do plan to try re-browning the tubes without further striking down.

Does your top lever hold open? I thought that the stud I mentioned was necessary to keep the cross-bolt clear of the bottom of the descending top extension.

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The top levers on all of my FP & G-guns do not hold over if the barrels are removed. The rear of the barrel lump holds the top lever over by putting tension on the under bolt. They are the “typical” type snap actions, typical Greener lever work. I’ve actually never seen the “plunger” on the action flats like that. You can see where AH Fox/Brown etc “borrowed” the idea from though.

I thought it was important to dispel the myth that these Greener self acting ejector actions are extraordinarily complex, etc. Fact of the matter is that there are fewer parts in one of these G or F actions than there are in most pedestrian boxlocks. The magic happens in the fitting of these parts, mostly in the sear angle/bent area. In the US, I believe Kirk Merrington is the only one here that Greeners used to recommend for maintenance (mainly timing issues, trigger pulls etc) on the G action guns.

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If you will forgive me (some of you probably won’t) for going back to my original post, I posed a question as to the meaning of a stamp (possibly partly erased) that I read as G.M. PAT.

I have just emerged from the Google rabbit hole (“where’s the day gone?”) searching for the operative dates of Needham’s ejector patent and was directed to a post by Small Bore in 2005 on this Forum where he said :-


“Greener did indeed buy Needham's in order, largely, to get hold of the ejector rights. He moved from the original Needham ejector to the Self-acting ejector and then the Unique ejector variants. Some patents stamps are marked 'G&N' withe the patent number , for 'Greener & Needham”

Which I think must answer my original question.

Now I just need to learn to read.

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One would think that the number "13" associated with "G.N. Pat S." should normally be the use number. That's an early use number for an 1889 gun. We just don't know enough about that Patent to hypothesize some reason for this.

I've only one Reilly with a Needham patent and that was for Needham & Hinton patent 706 - intercepting sears on back action (bought by Scott) and was used on a gun with a Scott action. Reilly seemed to prefer Perkes for ejectors. The problem with this of course is that most advertisements just don't list patent use info in them (Toby Barclay being the obvious exception) and that makes the database pretty limited. Never seen another Reilly like this one. Thanks.

Last edited by Argo44; 12/07/22 12:47 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

It clearly is N not M, and I am now puzzled that I ever thought otherwise. Not sure on enlarging the photograph if the S is really S or might be 8?

Like I said, I need to learn to read.

Gene, I recollect others in this forum warning against over reliance in using patent use numbers in dating guns. We assume that they were applied in chronological sequence starting at ***1 but they may have been issued in blocks or batches.

To take a case in point, if on the J. V. Needham gun I show above the J. N. PATENT stamp refers to the Needham’s ejector patent 1205 of 1874, the 676 would seem an absurdly low use number for an important Patent then in force for over 10 years.

On the Reilly the stamp could have been partly struck down when the gun was sleeved and the action blued. The number might have been 13** or 13***. Or is the S part of an alphanumeric sequence that started A***1?

Or is it just 813?

Last edited by Parabola; 12/07/22 03:38 PM.
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I blew it up and played with the contrast and tried to sharpen the image as much as possible. It looks like 813....clearly to these eyes it's an 8 and that would make more sense as a patent use number.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


I went down the rabbit-hole pursuing patent use numbers hoping to find 1 maker who was reasonably consistent.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=567037

The 1860 Henry patent 2802 - 7 groove shallow rifling seemed to have the most promise and for the first 5 years or so seemed to be chronological. However when A&T started providing patent use numbers it went haywire.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=568234&page=1

I tried to get Purdey to tell me if they had records on 1863 J. Purdey patent no. 1104 - “double bite” under action bolt....Reilly regularly used that patent up to 1877. Purdey said their records are literally locked up and they cannot access them. So indeed they can't be used to date a gun....unless it is only to identify the last gun before or the first gun after the expiration of the patent in which case it can help with dating.

In my dating chart the last Reilly with a 1104 use number is:
20623 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London and Rue Scribe, Paris. 12 bore. Shotgun SxS. U-L, rebounding hammer gun. (Purdey patent 1104 use #3928)
My chart dates that gun to spring 1877 (getting pedantic - possibly late April)...which is certainly a sanity check on the validity of the Reilly Serial Number dating chart since the Purdey patent expired 04 May 1877.

And here are the questions that have never been adequately answered about Patent use numbers:

-- If the owner of a patent made a gun using that same patent, was a patent use number stamped on that gun? For instance are these Greener patent use numbers stamped on Greener made and marketed guns; or are they only used for others who purchase rights to purchase the components or build them under license?

-- If a gun maker built a gun under license using others' patents, assume he paid for the patent use number. And the corollary, how would one know if that gun maker actually made the component himself, or purchased it in the white from the original patent holder?

-- If a gun maker created a gun in the white using patents that were not his - for instance if Scott made a gun in the white for Holland & Holland, but used others' patents (Purdy 1104 for example), who paid for the patent use number and where was it recorded? Scott who built the gun or H&H who finished it?

In the case of this gun apparently it was finished by Reilly but built by Greener (in the white? - probably - because Reilly didn't serial number guns he didn't build; he did serial number guns he finished as did H&H etc.).

Owners of an actual Greener built by Greener and marketed by Greener at this time might note if there is a "G.N.PAT" with a use number stamped on their Greener factory guns. That would at least tell you whether Greener authorized Reilly to build it or sold the components intact.

(813 authorized over say 8 years is not an inconsequential number - 100 a year - so perhaps Greener did put patent-use-numbers on his own guns because Reilly and others were clearly not selling a lot of them).

But one suspects that every firm had its own practices and nothing was industry wide.

Last edited by Argo44; 12/10/22 01:55 AM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Thanks for the photo analysis work Gene.

I had always assumed that my Reilly was built as a non ejector but started to puzzle why it should bear the GN patent mark for an ejector mechanism.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Looking at it more closely, and now being able to contrast it the the Needham ejector gun at page 3, it becomes clear that it has been converted to non-ejector.

The cocking hook has been reshaped but retains the slot for the ejector kickers, the front lump the retaining “nail”, and the split ejectors have been soldered together to act as a one piece extractor.

Last edited by Parabola; 12/11/22 05:09 PM.
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Owen, hoping that this answers your questions.

Parabola

Last edited by Parabola; 12/14/22 05:12 AM.
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