doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Mysterious English Rook rifle

Greetings!

I'm attempting to find out more about who might have made this English 360 No. 5 rook rifle, as there's no maker's name engraved anywhere on the gun.

This rifle has a .366 groove diameter and will accept 38 Special cartridges. It has a nice piece of walnut with steel butt plate and horn forend tip.
There are London proof marks on the left side of the breech, but I don’t know what the small scrolling ‘R’ stamp means - maybe a reproof mark?
It has a single standing and single folding leaf sight marked ‘50 YRDS’ and ‘100 YRDS’. The muzzle has an unusual convex crown, with about 1/4” of unrifled and over-size bore inside the barrel.

I can shoot about a 4” group at 50 yards with hollow-based wad cutter 38 Special ammunition. I would like to try a larger heeled .366 bullet, but I’ll need a custom mould for that.

It may have been made by Webley, as it looks like many guns illustrated online and in The Classic British Rook and Rabbit Rifle book.

Please see pictures below. Your thoughts and comments are welcome, thank you!

mbatten

https://app.photobucket.com/u/rmbatten/a/a47a3b7c-bb47-4afa-b423-878d209ccbac

Quite nice finish on that rifle. Sorry I don't have anything to share.

mbatten,
You might try conical bullets intended for 36cal cap and ball pistols. The max diameter is .375, but it's such a short section at that diameter that it shouldn't make a difference as long as it chambers. The base section that stands in for the "heel" is very short so it has to be handled carefully. Lube with Alox or spray lube. My cousin uses them in his .380 Rook Rifle.
Mike

Thanks Mike - will give that a try.

Look for 380 LUNGO ammunition. It will be the same dimensions. Fiocchi produced this up until a few years ago. I bought 2 boxes from one of the members on this site. Works great.
I have some new 38 Long colt brass and correct heeled bullets if you may need some.

If you're okay with casting your own bullets, you might try Accuratemolds. They may have exactly what you might want, but you can specify your own measurements, and modify another design by eliminating the base band. Also, for a modest price, an entirely different cavity can be cut in the same block. There are also shops that might have off the shelf expanders for the brass to fit your base. Best of luck with it.

Will the chamber accept a .38 S&W cartridge? That's about .366 IIRC

I haven’t tried it, but the chamber cast indicates closer to 38 Special.

mbatten,
I believe the cartridge is based on the 38 Long Colt, which is a little shorter than 38 S&W Special but since the chamber was reamed for a heeled bullet it will chamber a 38 Special. Starline markets 38 Long Colt cases, but you can just shorten 38 Special. We see rifles of this type with different names, even Holland and Holland. It was likely made In Birmingham "For the Trade", and being unmarked, if the seller was a "Name" company they would have their name applied. If the seller was a local (small) shop, they may or may not mark it. It may have come from the same shop as my friend's Holland and Holland, but likely didn't cost you as much. There are enough of these rifles around that you might take craigd's suggestion and call Accurate Molds; they may have already made a mold that will work for you.
Mike

I would guess you're right Mike, the hollow base wadcutter is probably fully in the 38sp case. Not that it is a benchrest rifle, but the wadcutter is probably also long for caliber.

mbatten, if a good heeled bullet can be figured out, you may only have to trim your brass to the point it reliably chambers? Because it's low pressure and assuming the brass drops out of the chamber, I would try get a good ID measurement of the fired brass mouth, and specify a heel diameter to friction fit. Then, you might just finger, not press seat the bullets. As Mike mentioned, you can tumble lube particularly if the HB wadcutters are working out ok, without sizing. Anyway, great looking little rifle.

I have a P Webley rook rifle that has been bored out to .410 that is very similar looking to this one so I am inclined to suggest it came out of the Birmingham gun trade.

On YouTube Duellist1954 has just put up a video with detailed information on loading .38 Long Colt with both .357 hollow base and .375 heel-based bullets.

The latter should work fine in your Rook Rifle, and he gives sources for the moulds and a very ingenious solution for crimping the heel based bullets.

mbatten,
I just watched the video Parabola suggested and using "jury rigs" as I usually did will likely stop. I am changing the way I do things, except when I only need a few rounds for a "new" caliber. The source for molds cited in the video has the answer for 380, 360, 320 Rook as well as .310 Cadet and many other heeled bullet cartridges. I won't likely use black powder in my rifles, but understand why others do and I don't argue with their reasons. If you use the heeled bullets and the .375-378 ones won't chamber in your rifle, you should lube/size them to about .368" before you seat them. If you already have 38spec/357 mag dies, you should be able to use them and only need to buy the adjustable shellholder and factory crimp die.
Mike

Whilst the custom made shell holder as shown in the video is clearly the way to go to crimp any quantity of heel based bullets, I believe that it is possible to use the Lee Factory crimp die on cartridges the are too short by holding the assembled round inverted in the die.

This will involve a certain degree of care to position them accurately , and checking that the bullets are sufficiently firmly seated not to drop out dumping powder in your press and profanity in the air.

Just for a bit of conversation, a single shot rifle might not need crimping considerations like a magazine rifle or revolver. Maybe, watch the overall length so the forward full diameter band doesn't get into rifling or any chamber taper? I've loaded a bunch of finger seated cast bulleys for single shots, and I haven't used my lubrisizer for many years.

Just guessing if it were me, I'd request the mold to drop .367-8, and the heel to be .001-2 larger diameter than the average inner diameter of a few fired brass. I think a good fast powder would be clean burning, so I'd just decap, not automatically clean the brass, use a hand primer, drop the powder charge and push in the bullet. It will hold well enough, it's not a rattle around fall out scenario, just shoot and repeat? That brass would be reserved for that rifle only.

If I were ordering a mold, I really would not prefer to size, and I think it would still be some form of a hand lubing step. The potential is there to improve accuracy, but if it got to labor intensive, there might be a temptation to fall back to the HBWCs? I know .378 Colt revolver bullets can be purchased, but they seem a pain for the .366 groove, though there are moderately priced push through sizing dies that can be had if needed? Fun project, to me this might be a minute of three inch square bouncing target, start at twenty, twenty-five yards, and go get it when it's out too far. Happy New Year all.

Was just looking through Winfer's Vol 7 on Rook Rifles and can see that it is a twin hook system by the placement of the lever. Is the hammer one piece with the firing pin? Is the forearm held on with a cross bolt? Is that a manually operated extractor via a knob on the right side of the barrel? These last things may indicate an older action.

Hello:

This rifle has a separate hammer and a separate firing pin. The forearm is secured with a screw under the forearm - a quarter turn of this screw releases the forearm from the barrel. The extractor is manually operated with identical knobs on both sides of the breech, but the case is mostly extracted as the extractor is cammed back on opening the breech, and is easliy removed with fingers. There is no ejector.

Thanks everyone, for your observations/comments/advice about this rifle. I thoroughly enjoy the quest to find out more about all aspects of its history and how to work up an ideal load. The exchange of thoughts and sharing of your knowledge is very much appreciated!

Happy New Year to all, and here's to brighter days in 2022!

mbatten
Vancouver Island, BC