doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Modern Paradox?

I'm sure this question has been asked many times, but how hard would it be to duplicate paradox type performance with a modern shotgun? Could you use rifled choke tubes and get a similar result?

What pressures were vintage paradox ammo loaded to? How does that compare to SAAMI standards today?

Just thinking out loud.

Thanks,
QD

All I can report on is the Westley Richards Fauneta (20g.), their "paradox" guns were designed to shoot a 470gr. capped wad cutter 1500 fps and generated 10,000 psi. Ask me how I know...lol

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...h=true#Post7045

QD,

You may want to use the search feature. There has been a lot of discussion about Paradox guns here. From the little that has been posted, most get the best accuracy from milder charges.

As for modern loads. In a modern gun, yes. Here is one if you have the piggy bank. http://www.hollandandholland.com/gunrooms/london/bespoke_weapons/the_round_action_sidelock_paradox/

Pete

Obviuosly just putting in rifled chokes would not get the gun to regulate, if you are talking about a double.

PeteM,

Thanks for the link. I read the threads and guess the closest thing would be one of the double shotguns that comes rifled by the maker. I think Sabbati made one. It looks like Fabarm still does http://www.fabarm.com/products-classis12.htm (Paradox Choke?). Does anyone have experience with these guns?

Utah,
Awesome gun. That's really sweet. Please post more. I hope you take some more game with it this season.

Best,
QD

I know there was a small supply of Sabatti's being sold a few years ago. They were supposed to have rifled barrels. Don't know if they also had a paradox model. Beretta has a 12ga sxs with fully rifled barrels that they will not sell in the USA. I know, I tried...

Pete

paradox rifles are making a come back. if you google it you will see some interesting new guns. I believe a famous maker is taking orders now for their paradox doubles and I believe they are a mere $80K-ish

Many people believe that an original Paradox gun is merely a shotgun with some rifling at the ends of the barrel. Not so. A cursory inspection of an H&H Paradox gun reveals:

1. Bushed firing pins - as on a double rifle
2. Third fastener - as on a double rifle
3. Extended tang to reinforce the stock at the grip - as on a double rifle
4. Barrels factory regulated using the same method used to regulate a double rifle

As can be guessed, a true Paradox gun is not just a shotgun that has been modified to shoot bullets. It is actually more like a light double rifle that has been modified to shoot shotgun shells. You can trick out all the shotguns you want by adding some form of rifling but all you'll get is some form of slug gun that is far less than a Paradox gun. You can't make a Rolex out of Timex parts.

Considering it's likeness to a double rifle, if you shell out the bucks for a Holland & Holland Paradox gun you get what you pay for.

1. Bushed firing pins - both shotgun and paradox Royal Ejector got it
2. Third fastener - the same as on 2 3/4" chamber Royal shotguns
3. Extended tang - a lot of shotguns got it
4. Barrel regulating - every Best shotgun got the same barrel regulating for shot. I didn't find the diffrence between Royal shotgun and Royal Paradox, seems POI is the same looking at muzzle, but just because Paradox ammo and kick is heavier the POI is a bit far from the gun, than when you shoot bird shots.
The only diffrences I found between Royal Paradox (not magnum) and Royal waterfowl gun: Paradox is much heavier on barrels and the first trigger got checkering on it. That's it.

Geno,

I recently had the fortunate opportunity to handle and examine about 35 H&H guns over a five day period. There were guns of all types, some new and some old. From my personal observance of those guns I can say that I did not see bushed firing pins, extended tangs, nor third fasteners on the Royal shotguns present. Also, if you flip through books about H&H guns you won't see those features on shotguns, just double rifles and Paradox guns. Just to make sure I wasn't going mad I took another look at "Holland and Holland, The Royal Gunmaker" to reconfirm this. That is not to say that those features could not be present on other Royal shotguns. I am sure that a bespoke gun could be ordered with all features.

Regarding barrel regulation. Yes, the basic methods are the same for rifle and shotgun barrels. But shotgun barrels are much less critical to regulate to point of aim. A couple of inches here or there means less with centering shot patterns. Much of the work going into regulating shotguns is spent ensuring the inside of the barrels produce an even pattern. Regulating rifle, and Paradox, barrels is much more critical and time consuming.

All that said, it only goes to support what I posted. Which is, that you cannot take a run of the mill SxS shotgun and turn it into a Paradox gun just by adding some rifling. A mass market shotgun is weak at the face, and the action and stock are not made to take the additional recoil that firing a Paradox cartridge creates. A Royal Paradox by H&H is amply reinforced. Other reputable makers used similar reinforcing on their Paradox type guns. Not to mention, all British guns were/are subject to proof. What would happen if you took a Stevens 311 SxS with barrels modified to make a "paradox" and sent it to a British proof house?

You could start with a well made, quality shotgun with a strong action and ample "meat" around the firing pin holes. Then, to do it right, you could drill the action face and install bushings. You should do something to reinforce the stock, at least at the wrist. Then, again to do it properly, you should re-barrel with proper Paradox barrels. If you are a qualified gunsmith and can do it all yourself then maybe you'll have a nice Paradox gun at a bargain price. If you can't do it yourself then you're probably better, and cheaper, off just procuring a proper Paradox.

I had a conversation with Paul Jaeger several years ago about making a .375 O/U on a Ruger shotgun. He had done some conversions like that before and chose the Ruger because of the strength of the action. He said he was no longer converting them because of "problems". I asked what the problems were and he went into a discussion centered around the weaknesses of a shotgun action and problems of overworking it. He mentioned double firing. He mentioned setback. He mentioned safety. A well known USA double rifle manufacturer also gained some early notoriety by converting Ruger shotguns to double rifles. You can sometimes find those early guns for sale online, most often in in .444 Marlin or .375H&H. These days, they refuse to do a shotgun conversion - for good reason.

But bold individuals continue to make cheap conversions using cheap shotguns as the basis. I wish them good luck and hope they continue to keep all their fingers. After all, anything works until it breaks.

Both Royal Ejector heavy waterfow/pigeon and Paradox 12g guns made on one action with Special Treble Grip. Magnum Paradox 12g gun got a bit heavier action.

Well done, Geno. So the Special Pigeon model came with the treble grip. I've never seen one of those.

My Paradox has an extra set of shotgun barrels that were added later. The extra barrels have the third fastener but I thought that was just because they were built to fit to the Paradox gun's action.

I imagine ordering a Royal shotgun with the third fastener cost considerably more than the standard Royal actioned guns. Just out of curiosity, how much was the standard actioned Royal in your catalog?

Why bother? If you like goofy things why not get ole' Central-European dril in 12x12/9,3x74r and have custom folding peep installed near end of the breech. For practical purposes english Paradox Goof Gun is effective to 80m for running big game and 20m for flying game. One can get decent ole dril for fraction of goof gun's cost!

Well, "Chacun son goût".

It just goes to show that everyone has his own taste. I have a Paradox, two O/U combination guns, and a drilling. For me it is the drilling that is the real "goof gun".

The combination guns (7X65Rx12ga and 9.3X74Rx12ga) have been fun for hunting. They are heavier than a double shotgun but easy to shoot and the rifle barrel is accurate. I have used them for deer and birds. Unfortunately, you only get one shot at birds or one shot at deer.

My drilling is a .30-30x16ga, lighter than some drillings but still heavier than a SxS shotgun or a bolt action rifle. I find it unbalanced toward the front and awkward to carry. It is nice to have two shotgun barrels but you still only have one rifle shot. The two triggers, safety, and barrel selectors are so goofy that I don't even bother to use this gun. Every time I've tried I found myself fiddling with the switches and triggers trying to figure them out. I'm sure I could train myself to get used to it over time but, for me, the operation of a gun should never be complicated.

The Paradox is a different matter. It is just as light as, and handles like, a good SxS shotgun. Either two rifle cartridges can be loaded, or two shotgun shells, or one of each. It is a double rifle AND a double shotgun AND a combination gun that can instantly change jobs just by dropping in different cartridges. No goofy controls - you can't get easier than one trigger per barrel. The removable sidelock action is simple and reliable, much more so than a drilling action. As a rifle, it shoots accurately as far as you would want to shoot a rifle without a scope. Shooting the Paradox with shotgun shells is just like shooting a SxS shotgun. It does just fine on a clays course with no weird patterning or strange behavior. If I handed you the Paradox and a couple of shotgun shells, you would shoot it and think it was a SxS shotgun. If I handed you the Paradox with two rifle cartridges and a rifle sight flipped up, you would shoot it and think you just shot a SxS 12 bore rifle. It truly has two personalties.

I just read that Holland & Holland is making these again in both Royal Sidelock and Round Body configurations. I guess that's the real answer to this thread regarding a "Modern Paradox".

Again, it's a matter of personal preference. I know what I like and you know what you like. We are lucky to have so many choices.

heres mine...a super magnum William Evans

SKB,
Pretty nice original condition gun.
Grenadier,
Eventhough some paradox guns (Hollands) have a third bite, bushed firing pins and extended top strap, many don't. The "magic" in a paradox is in the barrels and it is no small thing. Holland took great pains in regulating the paradox for conical and patterning for shot as the Holland ledger pages attest to. You are right, no other combo gun swings and points as well as a Paradox. Nothing "goofy" about a paradox and the use of such adjectives to describe one only highlights the users inexperience with rifled choke guns. Leslie Taylor effectivly increased the accuracy of the rifled choke gun to well beyond 150 yards with guns such as SKB's, while maintaining great shot patterns.