doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Modern Paradox?

I'm sure this question has been asked many times, but how hard would it be to duplicate paradox type performance with a modern shotgun? Could you use rifled choke tubes and get a similar result?

What pressures were vintage paradox ammo loaded to? How does that compare to SAAMI standards today?

Just thinking out loud.

Thanks,
QD

All I can report on is the Westley Richards Fauneta (20g.), their "paradox" guns were designed to shoot a 470gr. capped wad cutter 1500 fps and generated 10,000 psi. Ask me how I know...lol

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...h=true#Post7045

QD,

You may want to use the search feature. There has been a lot of discussion about Paradox guns here. From the little that has been posted, most get the best accuracy from milder charges.

As for modern loads. In a modern gun, yes. Here is one if you have the piggy bank. http://www.hollandandholland.com/gunrooms/london/bespoke_weapons/the_round_action_sidelock_paradox/

Pete

Obviuosly just putting in rifled chokes would not get the gun to regulate, if you are talking about a double.

PeteM,

Thanks for the link. I read the threads and guess the closest thing would be one of the double shotguns that comes rifled by the maker. I think Sabbati made one. It looks like Fabarm still does http://www.fabarm.com/products-classis12.htm (Paradox Choke?). Does anyone have experience with these guns?

Utah,
Awesome gun. That's really sweet. Please post more. I hope you take some more game with it this season.

Best,
QD

I know there was a small supply of Sabatti's being sold a few years ago. They were supposed to have rifled barrels. Don't know if they also had a paradox model. Beretta has a 12ga sxs with fully rifled barrels that they will not sell in the USA. I know, I tried...

Pete

paradox rifles are making a come back. if you google it you will see some interesting new guns. I believe a famous maker is taking orders now for their paradox doubles and I believe they are a mere $80K-ish

Many people believe that an original Paradox gun is merely a shotgun with some rifling at the ends of the barrel. Not so. A cursory inspection of an H&H Paradox gun reveals:

1. Bushed firing pins - as on a double rifle
2. Third fastener - as on a double rifle
3. Extended tang to reinforce the stock at the grip - as on a double rifle
4. Barrels factory regulated using the same method used to regulate a double rifle

As can be guessed, a true Paradox gun is not just a shotgun that has been modified to shoot bullets. It is actually more like a light double rifle that has been modified to shoot shotgun shells. You can trick out all the shotguns you want by adding some form of rifling but all you'll get is some form of slug gun that is far less than a Paradox gun. You can't make a Rolex out of Timex parts.

Considering it's likeness to a double rifle, if you shell out the bucks for a Holland & Holland Paradox gun you get what you pay for.

1. Bushed firing pins - both shotgun and paradox Royal Ejector got it
2. Third fastener - the same as on 2 3/4" chamber Royal shotguns
3. Extended tang - a lot of shotguns got it
4. Barrel regulating - every Best shotgun got the same barrel regulating for shot. I didn't find the diffrence between Royal shotgun and Royal Paradox, seems POI is the same looking at muzzle, but just because Paradox ammo and kick is heavier the POI is a bit far from the gun, than when you shoot bird shots.
The only diffrences I found between Royal Paradox (not magnum) and Royal waterfowl gun: Paradox is much heavier on barrels and the first trigger got checkering on it. That's it.

Geno,

I recently had the fortunate opportunity to handle and examine about 35 H&H guns over a five day period. There were guns of all types, some new and some old. From my personal observance of those guns I can say that I did not see bushed firing pins, extended tangs, nor third fasteners on the Royal shotguns present. Also, if you flip through books about H&H guns you won't see those features on shotguns, just double rifles and Paradox guns. Just to make sure I wasn't going mad I took another look at "Holland and Holland, The Royal Gunmaker" to reconfirm this. That is not to say that those features could not be present on other Royal shotguns. I am sure that a bespoke gun could be ordered with all features.

Regarding barrel regulation. Yes, the basic methods are the same for rifle and shotgun barrels. But shotgun barrels are much less critical to regulate to point of aim. A couple of inches here or there means less with centering shot patterns. Much of the work going into regulating shotguns is spent ensuring the inside of the barrels produce an even pattern. Regulating rifle, and Paradox, barrels is much more critical and time consuming.

All that said, it only goes to support what I posted. Which is, that you cannot take a run of the mill SxS shotgun and turn it into a Paradox gun just by adding some rifling. A mass market shotgun is weak at the face, and the action and stock are not made to take the additional recoil that firing a Paradox cartridge creates. A Royal Paradox by H&H is amply reinforced. Other reputable makers used similar reinforcing on their Paradox type guns. Not to mention, all British guns were/are subject to proof. What would happen if you took a Stevens 311 SxS with barrels modified to make a "paradox" and sent it to a British proof house?

You could start with a well made, quality shotgun with a strong action and ample "meat" around the firing pin holes. Then, to do it right, you could drill the action face and install bushings. You should do something to reinforce the stock, at least at the wrist. Then, again to do it properly, you should re-barrel with proper Paradox barrels. If you are a qualified gunsmith and can do it all yourself then maybe you'll have a nice Paradox gun at a bargain price. If you can't do it yourself then you're probably better, and cheaper, off just procuring a proper Paradox.

I had a conversation with Paul Jaeger several years ago about making a .375 O/U on a Ruger shotgun. He had done some conversions like that before and chose the Ruger because of the strength of the action. He said he was no longer converting them because of "problems". I asked what the problems were and he went into a discussion centered around the weaknesses of a shotgun action and problems of overworking it. He mentioned double firing. He mentioned setback. He mentioned safety. A well known USA double rifle manufacturer also gained some early notoriety by converting Ruger shotguns to double rifles. You can sometimes find those early guns for sale online, most often in in .444 Marlin or .375H&H. These days, they refuse to do a shotgun conversion - for good reason.

But bold individuals continue to make cheap conversions using cheap shotguns as the basis. I wish them good luck and hope they continue to keep all their fingers. After all, anything works until it breaks.