doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com A Question of Balance

even distribution of weight over the whole gun so that it feels effortless to use" is an intriguing comment by the Holt's man who handles best guns all day every day. His opinion sounds close to what Powell had written.


That perfectly describes the William Powell and Son that I picked up. I just got back from 3 hours in the pheasant field and the thought occurred to me that I never noticed I had a gun in my hands the whole time. I got it at the Southern . Picked it up as an afterthought, sandwiched between 2 other guns I was looking at. As soon as I picked it up ,it was wow. This feels like no more than 6 lbs. I spent the next 2 days comparing it's feel to Boss, Purdey, H& H, guns out of mv price range, and none felt as good. I went back repeatedly to compare. When I had a feeling of dread ,thinking it might be gone,I bought it. Apparently it felt better to me than everyone else.

Most just sit around and peck on their keyboards all day....

ksauers, that gun sounds very much like a sidelock JP Sauer & Son 12 bore with 30” barrels I own. It is perfectly balanced and I have no way to describe it. You just instantly know it when thrown to the shoulder. It feels very light and impression is much shorter barrels. Yet it weighs 7 pounds. Beats anything I have in my stable by a country mile.

I wish I could get you all to drop the "perfectly balanced" idea. We seem to have advanced beyond the idea of an "optimal weight" for guns; an idea which caused a whole bunch of experimenting and writing to no avail in Victorian and Edwardian times. All four of the handling parameters are unique to each gun and to each shooter's preference. Remember that one guy's "sweet thang" may be the next guy's "ugly stick."

Not to be pedantic, but to try really hard to clarify, a couple of examples follow. The average Brit game gun weighs 6 1/2#, balances 4 1/2" in front of the front trigger, unmounted swing effort of 1.45 and mounted swing of 6.4. Now, suppose we made a gun that weighed 13#, balanced 4 1/2" in front of the front trigger and had 1.45 and 6.4 for swing efforts. Surely no one thinks these two guns would handle the same, despite having identical balance. Now, suppose a 6 1/2# second gun happens to balance at 1" in front of the front trigger. That is a lot different than 4 1/2". Is it possible for this to be an optimal balance? For a shooter with a very weak forward arm it might be just the ticket.

It should come as no surprise to find a gun of "less noble trademark" that suits you better than anything else, even a, gasp, boxlock.

Stan opined that it may make sense to maintain one handling pattern across purposes. No argument from me. However, a differing shooter may well find he shoots better with differing handling for differing purposes. Neither way is "right." Remember, shooters are individuals.

Joe, your gun most likely has unusually low swing efforts for its weight. That is, the muzzle end of the barrels is lighter than usual and the butt end of the stock is likewise lighter than usual. The action , barrel breaches, and forward portion of the stock are probably heavier than usual. This heavier center area reduces the MOI which reduces the effort required for swing.

DDA

Don ( Rocketman) ,
As usual you are spot on and talking a lot of sense .
It really is all about comfort to shoot and our own personal 'feel' .
I am now in my 'later' years and beginning to find mobility slow and cumbersome ( as well as sometimes breathless).
Recently I have suffered a loss of shooting form at clays and all the 'experts' have expressed their opinion that I am too old and too short to weild my faithful 32" barrelled shotgun , listening and taking heed of their self opinionated expert advice I have taken out both a 28" barrelled gun and a 30" barrelled gun that years ago did suit me perfectly as I made my progression through my dealers shotgun stock ,at the expense of my wallet .
I am glad to report that the 'experts' can keep their opinions to themselves , there is little wrong with my 'long gun' it is just the lazy user.
On another note last week upon meeting a friend at a shoot he bemoaned that he maybe had made the wrong decision in hastily buying himself a new Beretta DT11 Carbon Black . " Why what's wrong? " I asked , he replied that although lighter than his usual DT11 due to the substitution of various carbon fibre components the gun felt 'DEAD'.
I asked to try , and yes it was heavy and unresponsive . He then volunteered the knowledge that using the factory supplied weighting system he had removed 30 grams of weights from out of the buttstock, I noted that the gun was very muzzle heavy and weighted well forward of the hinge pin . With his permission I removed the two most forward barrel weights from under the forend weighing a total of 20 grams . Very unscientific I know but we can only try when our backs are to the wall .
The owner tried the gun and instantly was beaming from ear to ear the gun in his words " Was transformed, I love it ."
Now let us not get carried away , it is not always that easy and I suggested that when he got home he should fit ALL the standard supplied weights ( 30 grams back in the stock etc.) Then check the weight and balance carefully and make INFORMED decisions which way to go . If it involves reducing all weights and balancing on or around the hinge pin , between the hands or what ever , so be it . Remember most 'Pigs on a Shovel ' can be catered for .

Well done, Salopian! I'm covered up with "must dos" for a couple of days. I'll get back to you with some analysis of what you did and suggestions of how to go forward . A gun with movable/variable weights is a fine place to experiment with individual weight, balance, and swing efforts. That is a lucky guy to have you coaching/fitting.

DDA

Man, I sure wish I could show up somewhere where you have your measuring devices, Don and get a number of my guns measured. Fascinating stuff.

James, I'm pretty sure there was an article about Don and his MOI turntable in a Shooting Sportsman a long time ago. I believe you could build your own. I've been considering doing that myself. Knowing Don I think he would be flattered. If Don sees this maybe he will know which issue it was. I likely still have it, and could copy and send it to you.

Time for one short point today. Balance (teeter-totter point/Center of Gravity) can be related (measured to) any other point in the universe. However, the most relevant point is distance from the front trigger. Since the (front) trigger dictates back hand placement, measuring CG to trigger and center of each hand's placement to trigger allows a quick and easy calculation of % of gun's weight in each hand. Some shooters are surprisingly sensitive to this factor. Example: CG to trigger = 4", Trigger to back hand = 6", and trigger to center of front hand = 9". Hand spread = 15". Back (trigger) hand % weight is calculated from 9" / 15" = 0.6 = 60%. Front hand distance divided by over all hand-to-hand is correct for the rear hand (the closer the hand center to the gun CG the higher % of weight it holds). So, front hand has 6"/15" = 0.4 = 40% = 100% - 60% . For a 6 1/2# game gun the back hand holds 0.6 X 6 1/2# = 3.9# (3# 14.4 oz) and the front hand holds 0.4 X 6 = 2.6# (2.6# = 2# 9.6 oz).

The difference in weight per hand is linear as the CG and/or hand placements change. The change in MOI is a square function (1X1 = 1, 2X2 = 4, 3X3 = 9, etc.) of mass X radius about/around the CG of the mass (lowest possible) any other defined point. Lengthening the radius by 3 has an effect of 9 times on the MOI.

Pivot pin has been the go-to location for "balance" for a long time. The truth is that there is so much variation among guns for trigger to pivot pin length that it simply is not a useful measurement.

DDA

Stan, that’s a very interesting idea I hadn’t considered. And was totally unaware SS had done a story on Don. If you do come across the article I would definitely be interested in a copy. Thank you.