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I wonder if >>A. Breuil<< was a relative of Jean Breuil?
Yes, >>A. Couillard<< would have to be a tube mechanic.
Argo44, I thought you to be that >>intermediary<< along with Wildcattle?
Serbus,
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Argo, thank you for the wealth of information! Looks like Maisonnail made very nice guns and seems to be respected in France. While my gun is plain, what attracted me to it is the quality of the gun and the handling characteristics. I think this gun is perhaps one of the earlier guns they made. The later guns look absolutely beautiful.
Ellenbr, I think Bruiel A. is a abbreviation for Bruiel Aulagner. I seen a post on shotgun world that was saying Bruiel Aulagner was how the barrels were marked originally, then switched to Jean Bruiel.
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Um, >>Breuil-Aulagner<< interesting tid-bit of info.
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>>Breuil-Aulagner were barrel makers,later,the firm took the name "Jean Breuil".(Very good barrels) By this time,plenty of skilled gunsmith(e)s were working in St Etienne and Paris,one making the barrels,another the reciever,another the stock...each one adding a little more to finish the shotgun which was sold in a gunshop ,the name of which was generally stamped on the rib.<<
Great info by Mr. R. Palmier.
Serbus,
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Jean Breuil later used this mark on his barrels: And where is Wildcattle; last we heard he was submerged with work (les bêtes enlisse)? I hope he didn't get burned out by the California wildfires.
Last edited by Argo44; 10/24/21 01:58 PM.
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Argo44: What is the term to the right of >>Canon<< and above >>8707<<? Serbus, Raimey rse
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I haven't a clue Raimey. New one for me.
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Was looking on a few French web sites (thank you google translate). Apparently, the grandson of Aime Maisonnial was answering some questions about his family’s guns. He is quite proud of them and still has an order book of the guns they made after the war. Unfortunately the earlier book was lost. He recommend this book. The Armory of St.Etienne Unfortunately for me it’s in French. However, I know some of you do speak French and I thought it might be of interest.
Last edited by DaveB; 10/24/21 09:21 PM.
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On the internet gun club, his grandson posted an article and a catalog from 1920. Maisonnial at Internet gun club
Last edited by DaveB; 10/24/21 09:43 PM.
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Canon Heurtier.
Heurtier (canonnier), 28 rue Clément Forissier ;
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Thanks Dave. I believe FAB500 also discussed that book. I will try to get a copy of it. One of the reviews says that while it has all the makers, sub makers, names, etc..it doesn't give a lot of judgement on the quality of the guns they made. Still, the names and makers' marks are what we really need here.
Unfortunately, I no longer visit IGC.
Last edited by Argo44; 10/24/21 11:10 PM.
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>>Breuil-Aulagner were barrel makers,later,the firm took the name "Jean Breuil".(Very good barrels) By this time,plenty of skilled gunsmith(e)s were working in St Etienne and Paris,one making the barrels,another the reciever,another the stock...each one adding a little more to finish the shotgun which was sold in a gunshop ,the name of which was generally stamped on the rib.<<
Great info by Mr. R. Palmier.
Serbus,
Raimey rse That's the procedure that many makers in St. Etienne followed, using skilled tradesmen to make the various parts. Vouzelaud (don't know whether they're still in business) operated that way. One of the Vouzelaud brothers stayed home and ran the shop, while the other one made frequent trips to St. Etienne to follow the progress of guns they were having built there. Good catch on Heurtier, Argo! I kept looking at that, interpreting the first letter as an I.
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>>Canon Heurtier<<, yes great catch indeed with that French magnifying eye.
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Hey everyone, I picked up a nice little French 16ga this afternoon. I believe the maker is Aime Maisonnial. The barrels were made by Breuil. It’s really a plain gun, but it handles very well and weighs 5# 11oz. Just wondering if anyone have heard of this maker? Salut, D'après la photo, les canons sont signés Claude Breuil, fils et successeur de la canonnerie Breuil-Aulagnier. Cette canonnerie, fondée par Charles Breuil et Geneviève Marie Aulagnier, fut rachetée en 1957 par Chapuis. Jean Breuil a travaillé chez son cousin Charles Breuil pendant une petite période. Puis il créa sa propre canonnerie en 1913. Celle-ci fut rachetée en 1963 par Verney-Carron.
Last edited by fab500; 10/25/21 05:13 PM.
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Merci FAB.
Translation:
According to the photo the barrels are signed by Claude Breuil, son and successor of the barrel maker Breuil-Aulagnier. This barrel maker, founded by Charles Breuil and Geneviève Marie Aulagnier, was bought in 1957 by Chapuis.
Jean Breuil worked at his cousin Charles Breuil for a short period. Then he created his own barrel making company in 1913. This was bought in 1963 by Verney-Carron.
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Thank you FAB for the information!
Thank you Argo for the translation!
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FAB500 has sent me some information on Maisonnial which I'll post here with a translation for the record. We all learn.
Les Maisonnial sont originaires de Lapt (Haute-Loire, France).
Le premier à faire profession d'armurler est Jean Aimé Maisonnial, né à Saint-Etienne le 22 avril 1896, fils de Jean, voyageur de commerce et de Anna Sarron, employée de commerce dans un tabac de la place Chavanelle, quartier des armuriers.
Aimé épouse Rosalie Boyer à Saint-Etienne le 16 juin 1920. Cette même année, après un apprentissage et un « tour de France » chez divers armuriers, Aimé Maisonnial vend les trois fusils qu'il a réussi à faire en dehors de ses heures de travail et s'installe 68 grande rue Saint Roch à Saint-Etienne. Il est mentionné 13 rue des Rives en 1931. Le 26 novembre 1931 sous le n° 5475, Aimé Maisonnial dépose la marque “Royal-Super-Steel. Crochet-Ahérobloc”. Il renouvellera cette marque le 26 décembre 1946.
De son mariage, naissent trois fils. L'aîné, Joannès (1922-1978), travaille très tôt au côté de son père et prend sa succession. Installé au 13 de la rue Clément Forissier au moins depuis 1937, Maisonnial Père et fils continuent de fabriquer durant toute la guerre. Ils se constituent un stock qui fait leur “fortune” après guerre, jusque dans les années 1950-52 où la myxomatose déprime le marché.
Joannès Maisonnial, formé à l'Ecole Professionnelle puis à l'atelier de son père, prend sa suite après sa mort, en 1957. Il se lance, probablement entre 1962 et 1964, dans la fabrication d'un superposé avec éjecteurs automatiques sous licence des brevets 1.307.757 et 1.328.873. Ce sont ceux de Georges Jay des 23 novembre 1961 et 17 juillet 1962 avec addition du 12 novembre 1964. Il conserve son atelier jusqu'en 1965, date à laquelle, ne trouvant plus les ouvriers qualifiés pour maintenir le niveau de sa production, il décide de fermer. Il lui reste encore beaucoup de stock. En Algérie, Boumédienne vient de prendre le pouvoir et réouvre le commerce à l'armurerie. La demande est forte. Tout le stock part pour l'Algérie. L'atelier est démonté et Joannès Maisonnial part pour Vichy. Il y reprend un magasin d'armes « Aux armes de Saint-Etienne ». Joannès Maisonnial décède en 1978.
------------------------------ translation ---------------------------------------------------
The Maisonnial's were originally from Lapt (Haute-Loire, France).
The first to enter the profession of gunmaker was Jean Aimé Maisonnial, born in Saint-Etienne on 22 April 1896. He was the son of Jean Maisonnial, traveling businessman, and Anna Sarron, employee of a tobacco business at the place Chavanelle, (Saint-Etienne) in the gunmakers quarter.
Aimé married Rosalie Boyer at Saint-Etienne on 16 June 1920. That same year, after an apprenticeship and a trip around France to visit a number of gunmakers, Aimé Maisonnial sold the three guns that he had succeeded in making outside of his work-hours, and set himself up at 68 grande rue Saint Rochelles at Saint-Etienne. He is mentioned as being at 13 rue des Rives in 1931. On 26 November 1931 under number 5475, Aimé Maisonnial registered a trademark "Royal-Super-Steel; Crochet-Aherobloc". He would renew this trademark on 26 December 1946.
From his marriage came three sons. The oldest Joannès (1922-1978), worked very early beside his father and succeeded him. Installed at 13 de la rue Clément Forissier at least from 1931, Maisonnial Father and Sons continued to make guns during the entire war. They created a stock which made their fortune after the war, until the years 1950-52 when Myxomatose (Rabbit virus) depressed the market.
Joannès Maisonnial, trained at the Professional school then in the workshop of his father, took over after his death in 1957. He began probably between 1962 and 1964 the fabrication of an Over/Under with automatic ejectors under license from the patents 1.307.757 et 1.328.873. of Georges Jay from 23 November 1961 and 17 July 1962 with an addition on 12 November 1964. He retained his workshop until 1965 when at with time, no longer finding qualified workers to maintain the level of production, he decided to close. There remained a lot of stock. In Algeria, Boumédienne had just taken power and reopened the commerce in guns. The demand was strong. All the stock was sent to Algeria. The workshop was then disassembled and Joannès Maisonnial left for Vichy. There he opened a Gun store "Aux Armes de Saint-Etienne." Joannès Maisonnial died in 1978.
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Did any of the Arquebusiers go on their walkabout to other countries forming a transfer of technology or did they just have all the technology they could stand?
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I don't know Raimey. But I will ask FAB500. French gunmakers did not speak foreign languages as a rule. But French was spoke in Liege.
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I really can’t thank everyone enough for all this information! Lots to digest.
Some very beautiful guns in that article.
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Believe it or not, but we are all learning as we go on this French maker data mining effort.....
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The frustrating part of this research is this post from Raimey a couple of years ago which is now dead as a "link" https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=479885- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Probably the same double? A. Maisonnial - Royal Super Steel - Acier Superieur Triple Epreuve - Special Pour Pyroxylee So PYRO would denote Pyroxylee? Cheers, Raimey rse
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The difference with the French, compared to the other major European gun making countries, is that they never seriously attempted to market their products outside of France. British, Belgian, German, Italian, Spanish . . . at different times, a lot of those shotguns have been readily available here in the States. French shotguns, in contrast, have never represented more than a tiny slice of the US market.
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Larry, it’s so true. French guns are hard to find in the US. But, after I bought my Charles Galand many years ago, I really just love the style. I am very glad I was able to pickup another. I am Looking forward to shooting it this weekend!
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And Argo44, I would say the issue lies with the Natura-Buy website where it is most difficult to lift the images. Otherwise, I more than likely would have stored them? Serbus, Raimey rse
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If you have a Mac, bring up the image. Hit Command-Shift-4...and you can then super copy the part of the image you want. I do it all the time. Works for Text, photos, etc. Quality is not the greatest but it works. There are some other commands which allow you to copy the whole screen etc. But I choose the old simple Mac command which Microsoft tried to copy with "snip."
Last edited by Argo44; 10/28/21 09:20 PM.
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Trouble is that I just can abide by a Mac...... I am a 1s & 0s guy.
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The difference between a Mac & a Pc is akin to Hungarian vs English. Really no comparison.... And I for sure do not speak Hungarian.
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Umberto Eco....a great great writer had this to say 25 years ago:
Insufficient consideration has been given to the new underground religious war which is modifying the modern world. It's an old idea of mine, but I find that whenever I tell people about it they immediately agree with me.
The fact is that the world is divided between users of the Macintosh computer and users of MS-DOS compatible computers. I am firmly of the opinion that the Macintosh is Catholic and that DOS is Protestant. Indeed, the Macintosh is counter-reformist and has been influenced by the 'ratio studiorum' of the Jesuits. It is cheerful, friendly, conciliatory, it tells the faithful how they must proceed step by step to reach--if not the Kingdom of Heaven --the moment in which their document is printed. It is catechistic: the essence of revelation is dealt with via simple formulae and sumptuous icons. Everyone has a right to salvation.
DOS is Protestant, or even Calvinistic. It allows free interpretation of scripture, demands difficult personal decisions, imposes a subtle hermeneutics upon the user, and takes for granted the idea that not all can reach salvation. To make the system work you need to interpret the program yourself: a long way from the baroque community of revellers, the user is closed within the loneliness of his own inner torment.
You may object that, with the passage to Windows, the DOS universe has come to resemble more closely the counter-reformist tolerance of the Macintosh. It's true: Windows represents an Anglican-style schism, big ceremonies in the cathedral, but there is always the possibility of a return to DOS to change things in accordance with bizarre decisions; when it comes down to it, you can decide to allow women and gays to be ministers if you want to.....
And machine code, which lies beneath both systems (or environments, if you prefer)? Ah, that is to do with the Old Testament, and is talmudic and cabalistic...
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Bet most of the guys who email me pictures to get up on this board own PCs. I’m nobodies expert, but, the Mac just seems to get out of my way when I have something to do, while the PC is like a stubborn pig sitting at the end of a leash, making me ponder what else I can try to get something to happen.
Best, Ted
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Example 1...QED: but as I said, MC came up with "snip" to rival the MAC graphics superiority...it was not nearly as good but worked. So Raimey, something in the PC world will enable you to "Snip" those photos.
Last edited by Argo44; 10/28/21 09:48 PM.
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Umberto Eco....a great great writer had this to say 25 years ago:
Insufficient consideration has been given to the new underground religious war which is modifying the modern world. It's an old idea of mine, but I find that whenever I tell people about it they immediately agree with me.
The fact is that the world is divided between users of the Macintosh computer and users of MS-DOS compatible computers. I am firmly of the opinion that the Macintosh is Catholic and that DOS is Protestant. Indeed, the Macintosh is counter-reformist and has been influenced by the 'ratio studiorum' of the Jesuits. It is cheerful, friendly, conciliatory, it tells the faithful how they must proceed step by step to reach--if not the Kingdom of Heaven --the moment in which their document is printed. It is catechistic: the essence of revelation is dealt with via simple formulae and sumptuous icons. Everyone has a right to salvation.
DOS is Protestant, or even Calvinistic. It allows free interpretation of scripture, demands difficult personal decisions, imposes a subtle hermeneutics upon the user, and takes for granted the idea that not all can reach salvation. To make the system work you need to interpret the program yourself: a long way from the baroque community of revellers, the user is closed within the loneliness of his own inner torment.
You may object that, with the passage to Windows, the DOS universe has come to resemble more closely the counter-reformist tolerance of the Macintosh. It's true: Windows represents an Anglican-style schism, big ceremonies in the cathedral, but there is always the possibility of a return to DOS to change things in accordance with bizarre decisions; when it comes down to it, you can decide to allow women and gays to be ministers if you want to.....
And machine code, which lies beneath both systems (or environments, if you prefer)? Ah, that is to do with the Old Testament, and is talmudic and cabalistic... You are a riot, Argo44. And probably spot on....... Fantastic ref. I have had my morning chuckle. Serbus, Raimey rse
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Argo44:
Does the same apply to French guns vs. whatever?? Mac users prefer French longarms whilst PC users choose an English or Germanic platform? Belgians are somewhere in-between mind you.
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https://i.goopics.net/j40hql.jpghttps://i.goopics.net/4xntnw.jpghttps://i.goopics.net/iff4fl.jpghttps://i.goopics.net/z5bmd8.jpgSalut, Pour une meilleure visibilité, j'ai changé d'hébergeur photos. La dernière photo est l'entête d'une lettre de la canonnerie Breuil-Aulagnier, période Claude Breuil. Quelques renseignements sur Antoine Couillard : Vieille famille de canonniers stéphanois, au moins depuis la fin du XVII° siècle avec Claude Couillard né vers 1686. André Couillard naît à Saint-Etienne le 1" août 1846, de Jean-Baptiste, fondeur. Canonnier-rectifieur, il épouse Christine Landy à Saint-Etienne le 25 avril 1874. En 1940, Magand succède à Couillard comme rectifieur de canons au 18 rue du Haut Verney.
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Merci encore FAB. Je peux traduire l'article maintenant. With FAB's help we gradually connect the dots and fill in the blanks. Translation of FAB's post: For a better viewing, I changed my photo hosting site. The last photo is the header off a letter from barrel maker Breuil-Aulangnier during the time of Claude Breuil. Some information on Antoine Couillard: (See the information on the OP's gun):
Old family of stéphanois barrel makers, from at least the end of the 17th century with Claude Couillard born around 1686. André Couillard was born in Saint-Etienne on 01 August 1846 from Jean-Baptist, the founder. He was a barrel borer. He married Christine Landy at Saint-Etienne on 25 April 1874. In 1940 Magand succeeded Cuillard as barrel borer at 18 rue du Haut Verney.
Last edited by Argo44; 10/30/21 10:24 PM.
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For our historical knowledge, I've translated more or less the above article on Maisonnial forwarded by Fab500. There are words in the article giving me trouble, in particular "entaillage" which appears to be "inletting" of a stock but not sure. Welcome clarification of the below words.. I'll add them to the French dictionary line
Anyway here it is:
MAISONNIAL A great stephanois name
Maissonial closed its doors nearly 50 years ago. This gun maker, as popular with professionals as it was unknown to the general public, during four decades made hundreds of shotguns of very high quality. Some arms were almost anonymous because often they only had stamps with the initials “A.M.,” two letters which deserve, however, more attention and recognition.
Maisonnial is without doubt one of the mose beautiful stephanoises signatures, one of the most prolific and strangely one of the most unknown. In spite of work of very high quality, acclaimed by such gunmakers as Vouzelaud or Gastinne Renette, who for a long time entrusted a large part of their arms to the firm, Maissonnial remained in the shadows, at such a point that very few hunters knew the name and the true measure of the quality of the guns that they carried.
Even with hindsight it’s difficult to explain why a gunmaker stayed more or less anonynomous while others of the same or lesser quality created solid reputations. The relatively short lifespan of the maker is perhaps at the origin of this lack of notoriety. Maisonnial lasted only 45 years, of which 5 were war years, only a small half-century which gave birth however to a prolific production.
It all began in 1920 when Jean-Aime Maisonnial, called by all “Aime,” returned to Saint-Etienne, his city of birth. He had finished his “tour of France gunmakers.” Just over 24 years old, he had already acquired a solid knowledge in the course of his journey and he was hired off the street by a gun maker…with whom he stayed less than a year. Because in the evening, Aime worked for himself in his own workshop and made three long-guns which when sold allowed him the same year to go out on his own.
An inconspicucious Name
The young man, choosing for his companions from among the best “window gun makers” (“armuriers a la fenetre”) (those working from home) in the city, started the production of SxS longarms with extractors and ejectors with a lot of ambition and talent. Very quickly the quality of his shotguns, actions (platines) of the type Anson & Deeley, was recognized. Most were simply signed with the initials “A.M.” and often it was the name of the other maker or a dealer /retailer (revendeur) which were spelled out on the actions or the rib – “Fini par Gastinne Rennette” (finished by Gastinne Rennette) for example. There is another probable explanation for the relative anonymity of the mark. It would seem to be necessary to wait until 1945 and the arrival of Joannes-Aime, the son of Aime, for the guns to finally be signed “Maisonnial,” in all the letters, and thus to see the name acquire a little more visibility.
Joannes-Aime, himself, born in 1922, early on joined the family workshop. If his days were taken up by the courses of the school of gunmaking in Saint-Etienne, his evenings and vacations were spent at the side of his father. When the war came Joannes-Aime tried to escape “STO”
(Service du travail obligatoire - English: Compulsory Work Service; STO - was the forced enlistment and deportation of hundreds of thousands of French workers to Nazi Germany to work as forced labor for the German war effort during WWII).
But he was denounced and sent by force to Germany. During this time his father continued to make some arms with the same companions, but clandestinely. The arms produced where hidden, carefully buried. At the end of the war, when Joannes-Aime came back from Germany, he found an operational workshop; the friends of his father had not lost their touch and above all new guns were born to be completed and sold.
The manufacturer was able to respond immediately to the strong after-war demand. From 1944-1957 Jean-Aime and Joannes-Aime worked together in their workshop. The father transmited his knowledge and secrets of gun making to a son already very detail oriented, even more of a prefectionist that his father perhaps.
Although typically stephanois and made on the actions of Montcoudiol, Chataing or Faure, the Maisonnial guns possessed some unique characteristics. A pistol grip with an unusual shape, nearly a losange. Checkering most often “flat”, that is to say lopping off the top of each point, so delicate to make and which one could no longer do today. The engraving was just as painstaking with chiseled shells (coquilles ciselures) in a motif of olive leaves.
Aime Maisonnial died in 1957 at only the age of 63; “Till the last he stayed in his workshop, working all his life,” recounted Michel Maisonnial, his grandson.
The guns marketed by Maisonnial were considerable. First there were six A&D long guns, in a number of variations and finishes and “entaillages” (new word – Stocking inletting?). All were equipped with actions from Montcoudiol, Chataing or Faure, and were classic Stephaonis SxS very well made. To these were added two over/unders, one “entaillage” and the other with side plates (contre-platines). And certainly the supurb model number 8, the best of the best Maisonnial, a SxS side-lock gun, as rare as it is beautiful and good.
The “8” had all the that a lover of fine guns would want. A racy esthetic, very refined, with fine english bouquet engraving, sober and elegant., with "ciselures sur les coquille" (shell chiseling"?) and an elegant quenched case coloring (trempe jaspee a la boite) which had patina over time. Add some side plates of the type Holland & Holland which can be disassembled made by the best specialists in the genre, Belgian or stephanois, a “relime soignee avec filets"??, a third verrou cross-bolt, and wood which for the epoch was highly figured.
For a small number of examples made to special order supplemental characteristics further increased the rarity: Heurtier “Plume” barrels. Some tubes deprived of a ventilated rib but sporting an “eagle's head” (“tete d’aigle’), such as one applied a triangle of steel, taking at the same time the roll of a very practical mini-ventilated rib and of a brace for the assembly of the barrels. (unclear translation of the below - need help). (Depourvus du band du visee mais comportant une “tete d’aigle”, ainsi que l’on applait une triangle d’acier tenant a la fois le role de mini-band de visee tres pratique et de cale d’assemblage des canons.)
Particularly delicate to fabricate, these models possessed an incredible balance and liveliness, with their 2,9 kg weight in 12 gauge and their very grained wood. According to Michel Maisonnia, the son of Joannes-Aime, “Only one gun in two hundred were endowed with these Heurtier barrels.”
The succession from Aime Mainsonnial passed without problems and Joannes-Aime continued the work of his father. He took the reins of the enterprise and the number of guns made under his direction makes one wonder, Because if the fabrication books from the period 1920-1945 have disappeared, those from the 15 last years from 1950-1965 remain with the family. And the least that one can say is that they bear witness to an elevated productivity; nearly 3000 long guns were fabricated during this period, that is to say 17 guns per month, more that one every two days, - 3000 guns of incredible quality!
The Largest of the Best
Three thousand guns divided into 692 SxS’s with extractor, nearly 360 over/under (a bascule entaillee ou a faux-corps) (with action "entailed" or with false side-plates) , and moreover 2000 over/under ejector guns of which 83 were side-locks (fusil a platines). Nearly a record for one artisanal maker, Joannes Maisonniak said besides that he was “the largest of the best artisans.”
In spite of this success, Joannes-Aime would continue to make and produce guns during only the next 8 years after the death of his father. Suddenly in 1965 he lost one of his best workers. He became aware also of some radical changes which were effecting his line of work, among them the fact that retaillers made more money than he did for a sale of his own guns. This situation could not continue for much longer. This led him to close his manufacturing shop without selling it to anyone, and to set himself up as a gun shop repair-retailer in Vichy, He remained in his store until his premature death in 1978.
The mark Maisonnial therfore lasted only four decades if one excludes the five years of the war. Four decades during which some 6000-8000 guns were fabricated, of which several were top of the line such as numbers 7 and 8. 47 years later the name continues to live thanks to some hundreds of guns which function just as they did on their first day. And who knows - without knowing it you might have one of these? Who knows if your preferred SxS bears this discrete signature? Therefore check under the barrels of your Vouzelaud or your Gastine Renette…the initials A.M. might be there.
Thanks to the gun maker Elysee in Paris who authorized the photographs of the maisonnial guns which illistrated these pages and currently are on sale at his store.
Last edited by Argo44; 11/03/21 11:49 PM.
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What Maissonial do you have?
In the 1950’s the Maisonnial catalog only had 8 entries. One found between the ranges of models A and G, two traditional extractor SxS. The first had an action while the second received a simple entaillage. The two arms were case colored wih a “thorn engraving” (un gravure en pointes d’epine) on the circumference of the receiver.
Then came numbers 5 and 6, two ejector SxS’s with a straight (something - entaillage droit) for the first and a double entaillage for the second. The two guns were case colored and had “chiseled shells with a motif of olive leaves.” The 5 received thorn point engraving, the 6 a beautiful english rose bouquet ornamentation,
The Number 7 is the higest range of Anson & Deeley with false side plates and false pins. The engraving is English rose bouquet with a large central rossette and four tracks (areas without engraving) in the form of a cross.
The Number 8 is the rarest and the most prized of Maisonnial guns, the model with true Holland & Holland side locks, with “Maisonnial window,” of a particularly neat and fine fabrication. The engraving is composed of three rosettes, two on the body of the “Plaintes” and one on the finest part under each barrel.
To these six SxS guns one adds two over/unders, a model with simple entaillage and a false body (false side plate) which takes the engraving of the Number 7 false-body SxS and false side-plate pins. The two guns have a three piece forearm.
Last edited by Argo44; 11/04/21 12:09 AM.
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Very interesting. I wonder if there are significant differences in the action procured from the three different suppliers, especially in the lower grades? When I say that action is ubiquitous in France and Belgium, I mean it. Every gunseller in every town has a few nearly identical guns in the used rack, waiting for a new owner. 12s and 16s,usually, Demi-pistolet and superb little bird guns. Totally makes sense from the number of guns I saw that there would be more than one supplier.
The ad that points out the barrels available with or without a rib is a new one on me. Love to see a ribless French gun, not counting a Breton.
Best, Ted
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Words giving me trouble: Will add them to the below when confirmed: https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=480959rosaces - rosettes? - engraving term ciselures sur les coquille - chiseled shell motif? - engraving term coquilles ciselures - chiseled shell motif - engraving term l’anglaise bouquet - English rose? - engraving term un gravure en pointes d’epinee - thorn point engraving? relime soignee avec filets - not sure...but think it's an engraving term faux axes de platines - false side-plate pins? faux-corps - false side plates? i.e. contra-platines? les corps de platines - side plates? entaillage – notching - inletting? un entaillage droit - straight inletting? a bascule entaillee - ?? Action something or other double entaillage - ?? le pourtour de la bascule - the something of the action
Last edited by Argo44; 11/04/21 12:11 AM.
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Argo, thank you so very much for translating the article! It has great information about Maisonnial. It’s really fascinating to me that this gun, which was not mass produced or marketed for the US, somehow made its way to Ohio and into my possession. I would assume it was brought back by a US service member after the war. I did shoot the gun at clays and it functioned perfectly and was a pleasure to shoot. The gun is probably approaching 100 years old and still is functional! A true testament to the maker!
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Entaillage; Entaillage droit; bascule entaillée; double entaillage; chien-exter-entaillage? (inletting; straight inletting, action inletted, double inletting; external hammer inletting????)). WTF? Trying to figure out what this is. And you guys who know more about shotguns than I do must be able to recognize this. It has to do apparently with the interaction of the action with the stock...and I'm inclined to translate it as "inletting" but am not at all sure. Here is a Passionlachasse entry: L’entaillage consiste à modifier la pente et/ou le dévers par usinage de la crosse au droit de l’interface crosse/bascule en modifiant les portées. Cette méthode exige une grande maîtrise et ne peut être mise en oeuvre que par un vrai professionnel car justement, il faut que le bois porte parfaitement afin de bien répartir les efforts générés par le recul. Si le job n’est pas fait parfaitement, alors le risque de prise de jeu et de fissuration du bois est réel. Le principal avantage, par rapport à la mise sous presse à l’huile chaude, c’est la pérennité de la correction car le bois déformé à chaud a tendance à reprendre sa forme initiale. Par ailleurs, les crosses avec tirant traversant ne permettent pas toujours la correction nécessaire, à cause justement du tirant. Tout dépend aussi de la valeur de la correction à apporter. En conclusion, pour moi, j’opterai plus pour l’entaillage bien réalisé par un pro, pas un marchand de saucisses…. 8) Searching Naturabuy.fr, here is a visual reference: xhttps://www.naturabuy.fr/CROSSE-PISTOLET-POUR-FUSIL-A-PLATINE-CHIENS-EXTER-ENTAILLAGE-MeCANISES-A-FINIR--item-6738839.html suggestions?
Last edited by Argo44; 11/04/21 10:39 PM.
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Hi Argo, I did a google translate on the Passionlachasse entry. If the translation is correct, it appears they are discussing changing the DAC and DAH on a stock by changing the angle of the stock where it meets the action. They are achieving this by removing wood in that area. I guess inletting the stock could be the correct term. They are saying that they prefer to do this instead of bending the stock because it is more permanent and doesn’t have a chance to move back, but they say it needs to be done by a pro or you could have some real problems.
Last edited by DaveB; 11/05/21 08:54 AM.
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url=https://goopics.net/i/gyloca] [/url] Salut Argo, À gauche, une bascule avec entaillage (celui-ci peut être simple ou double). À droite, une bascule sans entaillage.
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Gene, An example or two of “Rosace” engraving: This engraving style was called rosace in the Paul Bruchet era of Darne shotgun production (third gun, last photo) and this pattern was designed by an engraver by the name of Guy Ripamonti. It was not used on Darne guns prior to about 1980. There was a rosace pattern available prior to Guys involvement, but, it is nowhere up to his level of skill. It was the default engraving pattern on R15 and V21 guns of the Bruchet era, although you could specify any engraving you wanted, and could pay for. I have a catalog of guns produced by Ripamonti, and that pattern was not used on guns in that catalog. Perhaps you could order it, but, I have never seen a gun other than a Bruchet produced Darne so engraved. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, but, it didn’t happen often, for sure, and I’ve been looking for about 40 years. I can’t say if this is the same, stylistically, as what your catalog refers to, but, it is an example, that is widely known. More than one house engraver could pull that pattern off on a Darne (Ariel Recrux, for sure, perhaps others) but, Guy had a touch that brought it to life. Best, Ted
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Ok guys, someone take a look at what Fab posted on entaillage above and tell us what exactly it is. I still can't figure it out. Is it the decorative back portion of the A&D action? Associated with the stock as would seem likely? Thanks
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Fancy back boxlock on the left, plain back boxlock on the right. Per his words. The fancy back costs more money.
Best, Ted
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Ted, those are two beautiful Darne guns! I always have admired them. Just wish they weren’t so pricey.
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Three beautiful Darne guns, but, who’s counting? How ‘bout one more? Another French term for Gene. Gravure fond crux, composition becasse. Best, Ted
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À gauche, une bascule avec entaillage (celui-ci peut être simple ou double). À droite, une bascule sans entaillage.
Left - an action with "entaillage") (this one could have single or double) Right - an action without "entaillage."
Come-on guys...what is Fab talking about...there are no arrows or illustrations to point to the detail. So, is "entaillage" the molded back portion of the A&D action? Is it the stock inletting. What's the difference between "simple" or "double"? One of you all should be able to identify this.
Last edited by Argo44; 11/05/21 10:11 PM.
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Gene, The French word “entaillage” has several different meanings, but, in this case it refers to the notching on the back of the action, that meets the wood on the gun on the left. The boxlock on the right is straight up and down in this area, and less of a challenge to fit the wood to the back of the action. It will be cheaper, typically. Other than that detail, both actions are remarkably similar. More decoration on the gun on the left, but, the nuts and bolts operation is pretty much identical.
French gun making terms are a language of their own, and truly fluent French speakers/writers can become hopelessly lost in them.
Best, Ted
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Ah...and....ahhhhhh. Thanks Ted... By Gosh.....multiple terms for machining/filing and inletting on an A&D action. And we thought all those Eskimo terms for "snow" were superfluous. I'm trying to come up with an English translation that would fit for the vocabulary. I'll figure it out. And thanks for the invite to your next outdoor BBQ (I know you actually meant to forward it but forgot to write it down)...I'll be up in January after I get back from Africa. by the way should I bring a jacket along? Does it get chilly in the evening there? Gene Williams
Last edited by Argo44; 11/05/21 11:24 PM.
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Three beautiful Darne guns, but, who’s counting?
How ‘bout one more?
Another French term for Gene. Gravure fond crux, composition becasse.
Best, Ted Another beautiful one! “ Gravure fond crux, composition becasse.” Woodcock engraving?
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And thanks for the invite to your next outdoor BBQ (I know you actually meant to forward it but forgot to write it down)...I'll be up in January after I get back from Africa. by the way should I bring a jacket along? Does it get chilly in the evening there? Gene Williams Several years past-that Setter is a huge pain in the ass to be around if she hasn’t had several miles of off lease exercise at an open spaces park. Did I mention it was -47? That is ice on both of our faces. Balmy, as wind isn’t an issue at that temp. Thursday evening, venison burgers on the grill. My wife and son are reluctant venison eaters, or, they were until I stumbled on this mix-2 parts venison, 1 part ground turkey, 1 part chorizo, seasoned with generic Montreal steak seasoning. Everything gets gobbled up, now. My neighbor came down and helped me eat two venison backstrap steaks, I swear they were over the coals about 45 seconds each side, seasoned exactly the same, to die for. Best, Ted _________________________________________________________________________________ Red can cuzzie, check, red grille brush, check, I know Lonny loves that color. Detroit still sucks.
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