doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Interesting Pigeon Gun up For Auction

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com...ERIAL_PREMIER_SIDE_BY_SID-LOT512139.aspx

Some time ago there was an interesting discussion on what constitutes a pigeon gun. This gun has 32" barrels, M&F with left barrel firing the modified barrel first, vent rib. single trigger, no safety, highest grade W C Scott, superb wood, pigeon engraved on the barrel, a little over 9 lbs and its cased. Too basd there is no provenance.
So, is it a real honest to goodness pigeon gun? I really don't see why not.
Bill

Cool looking gun. 9lbs is a lot...look at weight limit regulations of various clubs to determine age. Hurlingham had 8 lbs in 1881, 7 lbs 8 oz for 1882...etc.

As for owner. EFW are the initials. Defer to others to research the owner though for obvious reasons, the "W" must be Williams...(and I have no intention in bidding on it).

The engraver should have been tarred and feathered.....zoom in on the side of the action.

I don't see a problem with the engraving crappy pictures yes.

This has the look of a shooter, a kind of expensive shooter......

Define expensive, for a "shooter". I would have expected a much higher estimate for a Scott Imperial Premier. I think I would easily pay $4K for it as a SC gun and consider it a steal at that price, which I don't define as expensive considering value and function received, if I were in the market for such. Probably go for $5k at least, and maybe a lot more.
JR

It looks great, I'm concerned that fixing the ejectors would be a significant added expense to it. And that checkering strikes me as being just over the line into gaudy territory. For my tastes at least. But the double did get my attention!

Well here is a possibility for "E.F.W." Any way to date the Scott Serial Number? That gun looks to have been made for America, right?

-- Edward Francis Williams, Baron Francis-Williams CBE (10 March 1903 – 5 June 1970). Brit newspaper editor, who came to USA as a professor later on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Williams,_Baron_Francis-Williams

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The forend isn't original and some one did some crappy work on the kickers if it's a south gate it isn't that difficult to time the ejectors

Eltinge F. Warner, Publisher Field & Stream 1906-1941
https://books.google.com/books?id=Lr1DAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA3&lpg

Zoom in on the side of the action check out W.C. Scott

Are you suggesting that this Scott gun could have been made for the author of this book?

Simply a possible EFW

He was a member of the NYAC and participated in trap shoots at Travers Island
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/30347/rec/104
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/30410/rec/105
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/31054/rec/106

It's a reverse the background is taken out

I think it was made as a double trap (clay target) gun rather than a box bird gun. But it certainly could be used as such. Maybe for a lefty since the left barrel fires first.

That engraving looks more like a post 1915 McGraw Ithaca No. 5E or No. 7E than work that belongs on a top of the line English gun.

What is with this little lap-jointed piece of wood?

How about the possibility that it was made for someone who liked to take incomers way out with the first (left) barrel, then take a closer bird with the more open (right)? Like myself. ???

Engraving is pretty cartoonish. Was wondering about the "castle". Any idea on the serial number date?

Unlikely since the info from Morphy's states that the left bbl @ .024 is the more open choke. Some people feel that firing the left bbl. of a SxS first allows @ quicker 2nd shot due to reduced recoil. Schwing's book on the Winchester 21 states that John Olin had his 21's set up with the left bbl as the more open choke.

Personally I can't say that I can tell any difference in recoil by firing the left bbl first on my guns but it is a very infrequent thing for me as I get very few incomers. Might be different shooting flyers.

Before someone calls me out on this, I'm aware that when using the same ammunition, recoil in foot pounds will be the same from either bbl but perceived recoil & the recovery time from it is according to some people is better handled if the left bbl is fired first by a right handed shooter.

The castle is a trade mark of w c Scott I don't think it looks much like McGraw engraving I have a grade 4 1921 flues with McGraw style engraving I have just located my Austin engraving book it might have a similar style shown there I will look.there are some things that are strange about this gun but it mabey just repairs made through the years.

Box bird gun. The executives at Field and Stream and other outdoor publications headquartered in NYC spend a lot of time at a couple of pigeon clubs convenient to town. New York Athletic Club and the Philadelphia Gun Club were two of them. The little repair that Dave shows is just a poor job of fixing a chip that exists in many double guns. No mystery there. No mystery about the date of manufacture either. Information is available on this site, early to mid 20s is the date of manufacture. Left barrel first is not only an Olin trait. Many custom pigeon guns are made to fire left barrel first, or, at least the more open barrel on the left.

This gun just sold for $9225 including premium which is somewhat above the estimated price.
Some lucky person got a nice gun and I hope he/she shoots well with it.
Bill

This gun was built for E.F. Woodward, a Texas oilman and top trapshooting champion of his day, in 1924. He said it didn’t shoot as well as his old high grade L.C. Smith, so he went back to the Smith. If you google his name, a lot of info will come up. Champlin had this gun for sale 5-10 years ago for $17K. Sandlapper

I just did a Google search and found that he was indeed a top gun and is a member of ATA Hall of Fame. I'm surprised the write-up didn't include this provenance.
I'm trying to explain the difference between Champlin's asking price 5-10 years ago and the actual selling price. Does this mean the market for fine doubles is diminishing or did Champlin simply mis-interpret the market?

For what it is, I think Champlin was asking a fair price; that model sold tor $1200 in 1924, which was more than a Boss or Woodward O/U. But I think you’re right about the generally declining prices for English 12 bore guns since then. Regards, Sandlapper