doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Who might this HM mechanic be?

Who might this HM mechanic be ? And what are the pair of x marks on each tube of this suhl (nitro marked) barrels?
Any info would help?

Maybe Hugo Manteuffel if Zella Sankt Blasii - Mehlis?? Hugo Menz, if Suhl??? I am sure there are others Which City?

K in a Rhombus?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Too, Heinrich Moritz of Z-M might be a culprit but I believe he was a peddler of wood and specialized in that & repairs along with some pistol paraphernalia. Stock mechanics is really one area we haven't mined much.

One interesting name associated with tube work is that of August Menz of Suhl, proprietor of Waffenfabrik Menz. One sees the initials AM from times to time on tubes.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Oh, those >>Boxed Ks<< or Ks in a Rhombus are either for a mechanic Klett or Kelber, depending on which way you lean?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

>>Looks like a post 1912 Greifeldt offering in 20 bore over 6.3X52R/25-35 Winchester with the bullet type & weight on side of tube. Difficult to tell for sure but the lower tube looks to have the S in a Chevron noting the Schilling forge while the scattergun tubes have the K in a Rhombus/Boxed Ks as Baumgarten might but it noting a K forge. RM tubefitter & I'm sure there ar other touchmarks.<<


https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...Words=rhombus&Search=true#Post352057

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

On the double shotgun posted by Jtplumb, I agree with him that they look like Xs or crosses in a box, not Ks. Note the marks on the top of the underlug, also Xs, but oriented differently. The marks on the drilling may be Ks, I can't see them clearly.
Mike

Thanks will get better pics if I can land this one, interesting 16ga. Never seen x’s like that on German gun, just making sure wasn’t a bad thing. Modern guns have choke markings like that I believe, didn’t look as if they belong here.

Ok I won the auction. Anything you gentlemen can tell me about this one. Hopefully engraving looks better in person ( photo quality was bad, I hope) Looks well used but sellers claims tight and no pits, dents or bulges.
30” barrels, no overhanging sear, lots of fiddle/striping in wood should be really nice checkered and refinished. Hard to pass these great pre-ww2 16s up!
Thanks in advance

A bit of a workhorse A&D Body Action with ejectors coupled with sideclips & 1/2 pipe side-frame reinforcement. Scalloped frame with arcaded fences also. Nothing short about the all Suhl longarm.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Can you tell me what this screw is for? Many of the German boxlocks I see do not have one in that location, I’m not well versed in the mechanism. Thanks

It typically is a pin but on German guns it is a screw and shows the lower scear.

https://www.dogsanddoubles.com/2016/12/westley-richards-brilliant-anson-deeley-design/

Raimey
rse

Too, if an upper screw is present, the upper would be an overhanging scear coupled with a typical lower(Sicherheitsfangstangen??) intercepting scear? But come to find out, many times this arrangement, like a sidelock, if faked to give an appearance of an upper rung offering.





https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=128247&page=1

Too, one can see the automatic safety.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...5.282264291796980&type=1&theater

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...p;Words=scear&Search=true#Post337501



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

>>Lindner Daly atop with overhanging and lower intercepting scears. No, I didn't monkey up the screws.

Gustloff/BSW below with just overhanging.<<

The Gustloff with just the overhanging is the post WWI German workhorse platform being a Kerner-Anson design.




Serbus,

Raimey
rse

>>H. Scherping fitted with the cream of the crop Witten Excelsior tubes for a client/retailer George M. Wright of Danville, Ill. I'm sure a diagram is around here somewhere, but does anyone have a diagram or image of the centre mounted scear at their fingertips, which is seen more on a double rifle platform????<<



https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...p;Words=scear&Search=true#Post336185


Serbus,

Raimeyr
se

Yes the scherping is same platform as some of the others guns I was talking about looks to be similar action with similar screw orientation. Thanks I will get interior pics this time when it’s torn down. After paying for screws to be welded up and engraved I don’t Monkey with them much anymore.

Now this is not a centre mounted scear but a lower intercepting.



This appears to be a centre mounted scear. I haven't found an image of the internals on this grande complication.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thanks it should be same action as the other suhl 16 I posted a while back with the pineapple looking engraving.
I believe this engraving will be quite a bit better than the poor quality pics show. If all is tight I will be happy to restore this one.
I thought it deserved saving with all the extras. Will make nice hunting gun for someone next 100yrs. Thanks again

Gun came in yesterday, k’s in rhombus so Raimey has better eye sight than me again. Engraving was much better than poor photos, couple screws will need to be fixed, wood and horn guard much better than photos but bad news was cocking lug broken on forend which will set me back a tad $. Shouldn’t be to bad. Looks like a higher end German working gun. New term I learned from a friend here. Here are some pics.thanks

Pleasure us with a pic of the standing breech? Too, with the Greener Crossbolt, side clips & 1/2 side frame reinforcement, it was designed for a stout load to dispatch something?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Is that at intentional mark or just a ding (damage)?

Who might O.H be?

Just a ding.

Otto Horbel

Karl Otto Hommel

Otto Hollandt

Oskar Hofman

Oskar Hickfang

Actually, I have no idea as we really don't have a schafter's list just yet.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Ok this little 16ga A and D, has :
30 inch Krupp fluss Essen barrels
horn grip cap, trigger guard and but plate (basket weave).
Ejectors
Sling attachments
Automatic safety ( safety same shape used on my lindner)
Greener cross bolt
Side clips
Frame bolsters
Game scene, scroll and floral engraving.

There is no place on rib left open for a signature.
It seems to me somebody just ordered a gun with most all of the options and didn’t want a bunch of visible names on it.
If I had ordered it I would have just added a intercepting sear but guess beggars can’t be choosers.

Reminds me of the list of options I went through building a custom Italian Boxlock recently the total came to around 5500.00
And had no intercepting sear or engraving option available.

Happy to have chosen this old girl instead. I believe total will be less than 2100.00 and she will smoke the newer model.

Too, nothing against the Italian ware, but there's much more soul in the Germanic smoke pole, poured in by its talented pool of mechanics.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Ok back to sears. I found a excellent image from Kuduae on kerners over sear(not secondary) after
Raimey put put me on the straight and narrow. Anyone have an equally simple example of the dual sear arrangement?
Even a simpleton like myself can understand this one.

I believe one can see it here on the patent application:





William Anson's U.S. of A. #305264 patent of 1884 for a top/overhanging safety scear.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Below is just a recap of how the APUNs were doled out for the Anson & Deeley Body Action whilst under the protection period:

>>Apparently I misread as it was William Anson that fell out of love with Westley Richards. John Deeley stayed on and had some 30 additional patents. Also Robert Edward Couchman was a/the director of Westley Richards and was the one who brought the A&D patent infringement suit against W.W. Greener, which Greener won. So Robert Edward Couchman would have been the one who was accepting the royalty payments and then policing to some extent. It appears that about 1890 that a Leslie B. Taylor became the director and would have had the same responsibilities. It was Deeley & Taylor that patented the Westley Richard's droplock in 1897. I think Westley Richards acquired the rights in 1883 when patent 1883/83 was filed by William Anson (& John Deeley???) on advancements to the 1875 A&D patent. Ken can give a correct date, but I would guess that this was also the time of the 1st H.A. Lindner Daly examples based on the A&D patent.<<

>>Ok, you hardcore Anson & Deeley Brevete stamp fans, much like Mr. Hallquist notes for H&R the same applied to Joseph Brazier, who was an erstwhile tube maker a few years prior to striking a deal with Westley Richards. So in 1876 Joseph Brazier signed up for the quaterly payment schedule thru Robert Edward Couchman for A&E patent 1756 of 1875 (and the Anson forend patent 4513 of 1876??) for a total of 30 shillings per action, which was to be submitted to Westley Richards for the stamp to be applied. So if Westley Richards was applying the stamps in Britian, I would now say that H.A. Lindner, or Charles Daly, was having the frames stamped at a Westley Richards satellite station or approved frame stamping location(Westley Richards & Auguste Francotte were real chummy). Possibly in Liege, I can't say for now but it gives a direction to search. H.A. Lindner would have sourced the frame forgings locally and either he or his subcontractor performed the filling and action work then had the "Anson & Deeley Brevete" stamp applied.

It appears that Westley Richards and director Robert Edward Couchman may have been fully involved much earlier than previously surmised, being as early as 1876?<<


https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...;Words=305264&Search=true#Post235497

Thanks for sharing those diagrams, I get it now.

I have two greener a&d made by j brazier 1879 and 1886 so did greener ever make an a&d...also I think the sear that is pinned on the top has a better triggerpull then the standard Anson style

Kuduae gave a good description of why trigger pulls may be better with just over head sear

This guns engraving is very close to early merkels I have looked up. What do you think these initials are? I first though HM but now I’m wondering if upside down or k vs h?

With the periods, script WK.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I would think that Greener made @ least 1(one) Anson & Deeley Body Action? But I could easily be mistaken?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Script >>WK<< initials could very well be Wilhelm Kelber.

Subject longarm.




Wilhelm Kebler Suhl mechanic initials.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thanks. I have viewed 100s of guns and found merkels and a couple behrs that have same engraving style exact in some cases they date from around 1910-1920. Did these makers send guns out to an engravers shop or house in suhl like the Belgium’s did?

They sent out for the tap, tap, tap adornment. Guns more than likely were a very small part of what was to be found under the umbrella of an engraver. So they too were an outsource worker. The Game-Scene engraving is a bit more than the apprentice & a template could tackle. Too, the adornment on the 1/2 pipe side-frame reinforcement may define the mechanic. I would contact the Suhl resident historian and engraver Hendrik Frühaf, as he would be someone that would know, if anyone.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Gun came back today.

Fassen? Der Fuchs..

Turned out a bit nicer than I realized.Wood was worn and quite dirty. Guns a bit lighter than my other German 16s and barrels are perfect and original 2.5” actually gun is all original except for new finish.

Another fine German prewar gun back in service