doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com OT - a tribute to wild bobs

Yesterday I was on a corn combine right behind my house, as we approach the end of corn harvest next week. The field borders my yard on the south and west. I was parking the combine on the west side when I noticed movement on the ground near a brushy edge. It was a brood of adolescent bobs, with at least one adult leading them. They were roughly three-quarters grown. What a thrill to see 12-14 in a bunch so near my house. Last evening I was waiting on take-out plates for my wife and I, at a local restaurant, when the owner sat down with me briefly. He hunts deer on a portion of my farm. I mentioned seeing the quail to him and he related that just in the past few days he saw two different coveys, at opposite ends of one of my fields, while preparing food plots for deer.

That's three coveys within a few hundred yards of my house, on a 198 acre tract, and I am almost certain there are at least two more coveys within that tract. Am I hopeful for a "comeback"? No, chances are nil. But, it just thrills me to see these survivors that have adapted to the less than favorable habitat changes that modern farming practices with large equipment has brought about, the hordes of cattle egrets that prey on quail chicks, the turkeys who destroy nests, the fire ants, and the explosion in the number of small raptors like Cooper's hawks, etc. I can still hear them calling in the mornings, especially so in the spring. It's amazing how well the little "gentlemen" have resisted total decimation. They're now creatures of the woods, much more so than when I was still hunting them in the late eighties.

I leave crop residue all winter in the fields wherever feasible, which helps them somewhat. I occasionally burn hedgerows, but they have pretty much stuck it out due to their grit and toughness. My hat's off to you little brown bombers. It would be a wonderful thing to hear you calling early in the morning of my last day on this earth. May you outlast me by many, many years.

Stan,
What a wonderful post and tribute to the birds. Further proof that most bird hunters care more about the bird itself than the bag.
Karl

As Stanton points out, modern farming efficiency has hurt quail numbers.
I’ve twice witnessed a red tailed Hawk take a quail.
One pretty much gutted and skinned the bird before takeoff.

I used to have a resident covey on my property; it was nice to hear them calling to regroup for the night. My German Shepherd tried to put the sneak on them more than once.

stan, great thread...let us hope your wish comes true...

Nice! Maybe he will mix in some seed in the deer plots for them

Great account Stan, sounds like a good sized covey has learned to give themselves a fighting chance.

Good news indeed! I have contributed to Tall Timbers for many years even though I've never hunted bobs. The outfit is the leader in bob management and use of prescribed burns to decrease predation and increase nest success and huntable populations in southern forest types, especially loblolly pine.

Had a pleasant surprise here also. A big brood of gray partridge next to my 43-ac prairie restoration plot that I burn regularly.

Great post, Stan. Managing for wild birds is a year-round and very rewarding effort. Little victories are measured in things that most overlook, though clearly finding a new covey in a spot where you haven’t seen them before is the ultimate goal.
Several years ago working to improve habitat and implementing the recommendations of the experts became my passion. I’m anything but an expert, but if you follow the guidance that is out there, you can get the results that many think is out of reach.
On November 5th I’ll be hosting, along with the State’s top quail biologists, a Field Day on how to manage for Gentleman Bob, with details on much of the process. The State will be bringing in a tram from Ichauway Plantation as we carry people around to learn about things.
Again, I’m no expert, but am excited to be an example of someone that follows the ideas of those that are.
If you want quail, it can be done!

I spoke with a friend this week in the SW part of Georgia/N. Florida who manages a property near Tall Timbers. Bobs are still nesting according to telemetry. Probably re-nesting as the three hens radio harnessed on his property had suffered nest destruction by snakes, most likely corn or rat snakes. Cottonmouths take not only the chicks, but the hen, too. Gil

We had from what I can tell a very good late hatch, Gil. Saw many new broods in recent weeks. Most quit nesting by now if only because birds that hatch late can’t make it in the cooler October weather. The fall shuffle will start in about 3 weeks, which of course is when the broods disperse as Mother Nature sorts out the gene pool. Those early morning calls from Mid October until early November as the winter coveys are created are among my favorite sounds in wildlife.


Here’s one I recorded last year:

https://vimeo.com/481047715

That sounds like a day I'd like to take in. We'll see what the weather brings. If the weather won't allow us to pick peanuts or cotton that day I might just leave here early and drive down for it. Thanks for the heads up.

Keith, he only plants wheat and oats in his plots, but after the season I leave them and let them head out and go to seed. It becomes a great place for the birds to forage and raise chicks. It's not harrowed under until September of the following year.

This is one of those plots, I named The Smokehouse...........because you can get meat there anytime. And, there's almost always a covey hanging out within a hundred yards or so of it.

Quail Forever will be advertising and handling sign-ups for attendees. Dallas Ingram, the State’s quail biologist, sent me an email a couple of days ago with an update. I’m pretty sure they’ll end up having a lunch for attendees.
It should be an interesting morning as they’ll be focusing on about 5 topics, such as spraying, discing, my feed program, hardwood management, and who knows what all.
I believe they’re planning to cap attendance at 30 people.
Come if you can!

Though most of y’all live east of me we have an outstanding quail research project here in Texas. Dale Rollins , recently retired, has been the brains behind it and a colorful character. He is known to many of us as Mr Quail. Here is the link (full of great quail information) to the Rolling Plains Research Foundation:

https://www.quailresearch.org/

For what it’s worth, right now the upcoming quail season prospects in much of Texas appear to be poor to a little better. South Texas might be good to excellent. Big state!

"Dr Dale on Quail" is awesome. I listen to all of his podcasts and remain amazed at how he can make almost every quail sound with his mouth. West Texas quail properties are mighty lucky to have him among their resources.


Dr Dale Rollins making quail sounds

Now that Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever have merged, the organization is focusing more on bobs. I remember attending a state PF meeting several years ago that included an excellent presentation on quail. One of the PF guys in Nebraska bought a small farm, I think maybe 160 acres. There were 2 coveys on the farm. By taking advantage of every PF, state, and federal conservation program available, he increased that to 10 coveys.

Compared to pheasant habitat work, doing the same for quail isn't as easy. I'll never forget one remark the presenter made: "Good pheasant habitat is not necessarily good quail habitat. But good quail habitat is always good pheasant habitat."

When the Conservation Reserve Program began in 1985, we still had fairly decent quail numbers in southern Iowa. Basically, the bottom two tiers of counties. Lots of small fields, brushy edges, etc. A fair amount of timber and pastures. CRP resulted in increased pheasant numbers as small corn and soybean fields were replaced with grass. But it didn't work out so well for quail. In some places, you had to do some looking to find any of those small crop fields. And eventually, pheasant numbers took a nose dive as well. A whole lot of tall grass, pasture, and timber. Not nearly as much corn and soybeans.

Dale Rollins is a good friend of mel1541, as I understand it, one of our no-nonsense TX members of this forum. His abilities to replicate quail's calls with his mouth alone are truly amazing.

Food plots like this are a predator's buffet

We were out walking on a State sponsored trail that wandered through and around all that remains of undeveloped land here, a 100 acre defunct turkey farm, when I heard that whistle, Bob White: Could not believe my ears as I have not heard that for forty years or so. I called the DEC and asked if there had released birds, they had not, but noted that birds had escaped from several private preserves in East-central LI and had been heard along a green corridor connecting undeveloped County and State parks. I keep my fingers crossed.

I own a small farm on the Maryland eastern shore. I am managing it for wildlife and am particularly interested in bobwhite quail. Since converting the former farm fields to meadow and encouraging native plants that support quail we have wild birds reproducing on our land. There are more quail on the shore than most people realize but not in numbers that support hunting. The MD DNR seems to be stuck in a time warp as their quail season and limit haven't changed since the 70s. I did ask the local extension agent for some guidance in planting native plants for quail but only received a flyer about generic wildlife planting. Not helpful at all. So I will continue to plod along and try and keep the quail supported. They have it pretty rough between the predators and the intense farming practices.

Good job on working to improve the habitat. That is the clear starting point that will ultimately make the difference.
I’ve done some native grass plantings and it can make a difference in some spots. I purchased a piece of property that jutted into my farm that had previously been a cattle operation all covered in Bahia and coastal Bermuda grass. It was tough to kill but we did it. Immediately afterwards I planted the area in 4 different grasses and 2 flowering plants It was stunning how quickly the area turned into almost a quail rookery; simply full of birds, especially during the long summer nesting season.
The choice of species I used could be easily duplicated and has been by others. The seeds come from a place in Kentucky.
All of that said, your soil is probably already full of native grass seeds that have been simply waiting on the right conditions to emerge and flourish. A combination of winter discing and spring burning will jumpstart it all for you without you having to buy the first seed.
Good luck!

Spring-Thanks for the tip. I do know the fellow who does burns for the state and he has offered to do a burn on my land if needed. I just might give it a try.

If you edited it to read 'intense farming poisons'....I could agree with you.

Funny how the quail were doing just fine before we started improving their habitat.

Back when quail were thick as thieves all around Ames Plantation I can't recall seeing one single burn.

Before Europeans arrived in America, fire was used by humans to manage the pine forests in the Southeast. The practice was later adopted by the newly arrived farmers, but was discouraged as timber interests began to campaign against woods burning. In 1924 Herbert Stoddard endorsed the use of fire in the quail woods of the Red Hills of Georgia for both timber and quail management. His publication in 1931 "The Bobwhite Quail..." detailed his research. While Aldo Leopold is considered by many to be the father of wildlife management, he acknowledged later in life that it was Herbert Stoddard who was among the first of the game management pioneers because of his work in recognizing the importance of controlled burning in the wire grass and longleaf forests of SW Georgia. According to Leopold: "Herbert Stoddard, in Georgia, started the first management of wildlife based on research." The longleaf pine evolved to withstand and flourish after natural fires were caused by lightning strikes. Fire is critical for the survival of longleaf pines as it removes forest litter which impedes the growth of longleaf seedlings, removes fire intolerant competing pines and controls blight which can sicken the longleaf pine. Gil

Good on all of the members who improve the habitat on their land for wildlife. You probably don't get thanked enough for your efforts.

To see hundreds of thousands of acres of private property managed for bobwhite quail, bring up Thomasville, GA and Tallahassee, FL on the same screen in Google Earth. Note the dearth of pivot irrigation or agricultural fields in a wide zone between the two cities. The appearance of this land from high altitude easily contrasts with the agricultural fields outside of the zone between the two cities. In over 600,000 acres between the two cities, the land looks different. Now zoom into one of the brownish areas that doesn't look like a forest. Get to about 400 feet. Note what appears to be a checkerboarding of the landscape. That's "blocking" wherein lanes are cut through the grasses that allow bird hunters to approach the dogs along clear lanes. The squares are typically 25x25 yards. The birds are in the squares of uncut taller grasses and shrubs. These are wild birds on a grand scale. These wealthy owners are not only stewards of the land, but also of wild quail. A "course" is a route that hunters on foot or horseback can cover in a half day or whatever the landowner desires. The courses are hunted not more than 4 times a season on many places to protect the wild coveys. Gil

Here's a video, Gil, that I'm sure you've seen but I always enjoy watching again. It was done by a real estate group in Thomasville and filmed on Pinehaven Plantation, which is barely into Florida just south of Thomasville. I've hunted on Pinehaven twice; it's a special place.

I had not seen the video. Thanks. I noted the traditional white vests worn by some of the hunters. The only places I've seen that still wear the white vests are in the Red Hills where tradition never dies. Gil

If you live rural and want to burn your habitat, the local fire dept will probably do it for you. I had a couple acres worth of prairie grass and pollinators that needed burning. The local guys did a good job; great training for them. No charge. But I gave them a $100 donation.

Down here it's not the fire department that assists landowners with burning, it's the Ga Forestry Commission. For a small fee they will bring out a crawler and fire plow and plow around the burn area for you, then standby while you burn if you desire them to. You must call them before burning in order to secure a burn permit. They mostly take into consideration the wind and the relative humidity before issuing you a permit number, which is only valid for that day. And, they usually require the burn to be over with by nightfall, although under some conditions nighttime is the perfect time to do a slow burn because the humidity often rises after dark.

I do some controlled burns late in the winter, usually creating my own plowed perimeter with a tractor and heavy disc harrow, then starting the fire with a "firepot", which is an aluminum and brass container that contains a mixture of gasoline and diesel fuel and drips the burning mixture at intervals as you walk along. Sometimes we burn downwind, sometimes we do a back burn and let the fire burn slowly upwind. It's according to the amount of fuel present, and what we are attempting to kill, such as hardwood saplings. Left unburned, an open stand of pines will quickly degenerate into a useless jungle of hardwood saplings and briars, not a useful habitat for much of anything. You don't need to burn the areas every year. Usually once every two or three years is often enough. Then, eventually it may not even need it as often as that.

Few things are as settling and soothing to my soul as a bob‘s call near dusk, or the call of a whip poor wills. If the last thing I hear outdoors is one of them it will be a nice day.

Burn Day is always one of my favorite times in the year-long effort to manage for Gentleman Bob. Aside from being one of the cheapest efforts you can implement, it’s also the most effective.
All of my uplands are on 2-year burn cycles (switched from a 3-year cycle about 5-6 years ago). My forester and his team help us, and unlike a large state or federal tract, we are able to be very nimble on the specific timing of which burn day we select, an effort that considers the sap rising in the young hardwoods that we want to kill, humidity, wind, and how much things have started greening up. In general, we burn around the 3rd to the early part of the 4th week in March.

I can recall putting up some coveys of quail when I was pretty young, but they are nothing but a memory these days in virtually all of Pennsylvania. I never got to shoot any, and never tasted one. Considering the great difficulty of re-establishing ringneck pheasants and the continuing decline of grouse and turkey numbers, I don't hold out much hope of hunting them in this state in my lifetime... unless I stoop to paying to shoot pen raised birds.

https://www.pgc.pa.gov/Wildlife/WildlifeSpecies/Pages/Northern-Bobwhite-Quail.aspx

My area is still largely agricultural and rural, and the farms range from modern, to abandoned, to Amish Dutch, where draft horses are still used to till the soil, and fence rows and other cover is still abundant. Grass fires still happen with regularity when we have dry weather in the spring or fall. I know I have lamented the crash of our ringneck pheasant population, and blamed much of that on the Game Commissions' mis-Management decision to permit shooting hens. But the one other big change that I feel has contributed to the crash of wild game bird populations is the protection of hawks and other raptors, and the introduction of the Eastern Coyote. I've seen most of the blame placed on clean farming, herbicides, and habitat loss. But it is obviously a combination of factors, and the Game Biologists seem very reluctant to even mention the role they themselves played by protecting these predators as if they were on the verge of extinction.

After I Brush Hog my field, I'll often have up to a dozen or more hawks circling overhead to hunt prey in the cut weeds. And it seems like just about every power line has a Red-Tailed Hawk perched on it. I don't think it would hurt the present game bird situation to thin the herd of predators, including feral cats. When I shot two coyote pups in my driveway in the spring, my only regret was that I wasn't able to cycle the bolt on my .22 rifle fast enough to put a bullet in a couple more before they got into the weeds.

Keith: I have seen a dramatic increase in hawks up here this year. Driving down the roads in the forests here is a tour through all the various avian predators (Red Tails, Cooper's, Sharpshinned, etc.) in my bird book. I spoke with one of the folks that manage things here and he agreed that the numbers have jumped dramatically this year. He thought that maybe the drought conditions this summer had contributed to the spike but he clearly wasn't sure.



A common sight on the trails this year...

Growing up in Pennsylvania, I don't remember seeing many predators. I think the many years of predator control (in the 40s and 50s) that had happened before I hit the ground there played a big part in that.

Predators of a variety of types can be a threat to quail. Avian predators are a threat to adult birds while nest predators, such a racoons, opossums, armadillos, and bobcats are also very harmful. The path for a bird to hatch and then make it to adulthood is a perilous one.
No doubt some quail managers put a lot of effort into predator control, and I've done some of that, too, but as we know, predators have been around for as long as quail have, so there must be something else that's in play here. In the opinion of most, the change that has been been introduced that is most negatively impactful on quail populations is simply the loss of habitat. You're not going to see quail in cities, in monogamous pine tree plantings, in large irrigated row crop fields, in bahia grass planted for cattle, in timber tracts with a high basal count with little ground cover, or smaller isolated tracts that cannot handle the weather variations needed to sustain a population.
Wisely managed quail properties have 3 key components, and when you eliminate one or more of them, things don't' work. You need nesting cover, you need food, and you need escape cover. While predator control can be beneficial if done on a large and consistent basis, in many cases you simply open up the avenue for expansion of a different species when you remove a competitor. Most people do not have the time or resources to do this on the scale needed. Hence, the answer that I think is a better management target and solution is to simply have the needed cover in place where predators can't so easily have a free lunch.
There's a reason that pen-raised quail only live for a few days at most after being released and that wild birds can continue to flourish on a wisely managed tract. One is wary and one is not, and in addition, one knows where to hide while the other stands out in the open and says, "What is that fast creature flying up overhead?"
Predator control is nice, but habitat management is better.

For quail, while every little bit helps, it's not only what you do on your land that makes the difference, it's what your neighbor does, and what his neighbor does, and the same sequence repeated, over and over. That is what makes the Red Hills area so productive. Same can be said about the Albany, GA. area. Gil

The scene Lloyd posted of a pile of down, feathers, and bones is as old as birds and predators. But I don't think it is mere coincidence that when I began seeing that same scene much more frequently, it coincided with the persistent and ongoing crash in ruffed grouse numbers. I am very familiar with the area where Lloyd grew up, and acknowledge that we were both near the extreme Northern boundary of the range of wild quail. I'd guess that had a lot to do with the depth and extent of lake effect snow coming off of Lake Erie. But we did have some quail, and now we don't. Wild ringneck pheasant populations crashed in the 1980's, soon after the Game Commission unwisely permitted the shooting of hens. And the PGC Biologists blamed everything but that big change they iniated in harvesting, which also coincided with decreased trapping and increased predator populations. And ruffed grouse went through their normal 11 year population cycles, but even the down years were much better than what I see now. The grouse even benefited from a big increase in logging caused by timber companies dramatically increasing their harvesting of oak trees during the Gypsy Moth infestation of the early 1990's. I flushed and shot a lot of grouse during that time. But then I began noticing a lot more of those piles of grouse (and turkey) feathers and bones like Lloyd shared, and soon the flushes and shots became less frequent. Nobody was spraying Roundup, Simazine, or Paraquat in those grouse woods, and nobody was building Malls or housing developments either. The 1990's was also the time when I began hearing and seeing coyotes, and they have increased in numbers to a point that they are apparently eating or driving out much of their competition, such as foxes and opossums.

I won't say that the increased number of predators is the sole cause of our present situation where quail and pheasant are all but extinct, and grouse are very scarce. I very much believe that it is a combination of factors that finally reaches a tipping point where mortality began to outstrip survival and natural breeding rates. I also know that the larger farming operations use herbicides instead of cultivators to control weeds, and there just is not nearly as much cover, or insects for food between the rows, as there was when I began hunting. But I also know that in my area at least, the next Amish Dutch field or abandoned farm over still provides the same cover and food sources that were available decades ago. And logging of pines and hardwoods provides a constant source of succession growth. This isn't at all like some of the midwest where agriculture has been dominated by massive monocrop farms with scarcely any fence-rows or natural cover remaining. And Hunting License sales are down at least 25% from their peak, so we sure can't blame hunting pressure or over-harvesting.

I don't really believe that our Game Biologists are too stupid to connect the dots. But I do believe that many of them simply refuse to acknowledge some of the obvious factors in the decline of game bird populations. The money from Hunting Licenses provides the funds for their paychecks, but it seems like the interests of hunters is taking a back seat to those of environmentalists who whine and complain that every raptor deserves to be left alone, and do nothing to strike a healthy balance, or create an attraction to the next generation of hunters. I can only imagine how quickly I would have lost interest if I had followed my Dad through forest or fields for several days without so much as even flushing a grouse or pheasant.

Stan's pics of doing controlled burns reminds me of all the times I mowed fire-breaks and then waited for a calm evening to light things up. I didn't get to do it this spring because of the rains. Several times, not long after I got a good flame front moving, the wind would pick up and... holy shit!!!... I would damn near kill myself getting it under control. I don't know how I never got arrested for uncontrolled burning without a permit. I did have a local cop pull in one evening as I was frantically driving my tractor through the flame front and smoke, using the back-blade to knock down the flames before they could get into the neighbors woods. He asked me if I wanted him to call the Fire Dept., and for some reason, he believed me when I said, "No thanks officer, I'll be fine."

Always good to hear about prescribed burns. I have done at least 50 in mixed grass prairie on my place, and helped with many more. Best and easiest is for two guys to do a surround burn, starting at the most leeward corner and let the backing fire go up the edges till we meet and the plot is surrounded by fire. Then to save time headfire the rest. The need for fancy firebreaks is minimal and we usually just use wheeltracks to compress the grass, always making sure there are no escapes behind us as we move upwind on both sides at the windeard corner. All we carry is a flapper and a fire rake to spread fire forward. Of course we use roads, moist ravines, plowed ground, etc. to make the job even easier. I would never attempt this technique in tallgrass prairie or any place with woody vegetation along the edges. To burn out a cattail infested wetland surrounded by cropland all you need is a Bic lighter. Sure wish more cattlemen would improve their pastures with an occasional burn. And we have thousands of acres of public land where Kentucky bluegrass and introuced weeds have shaded out the native prairie plants vital to so many species. Too bad so many agencies are saddled with unneeded safety regulations they can't get much done. Don't get me started!

Burn the woods and save the wildlife....bunch of bull hOckey

When you see a flushing dog in a video you can bet your sweet azz they are not shooting wild quail.

Back in the day I had a hunting buddy in Va who hunted wild quail with his Springer and they flat out destroyed them. I'm talking 20 plus years ago. Once that Springer put up the Covey she was hell on wheels with the singles. This was in the Shenandoah Valley not far from Harrisonburg Va.

Stan's grand pappy ground swatted coveys "back in the day"....

I have shot quite a few wild Bobs over my Springers, as well as many other species so called experts tell you that pointy dogs are required for.

Those are Labrador retrievers, not Labrador flushers. The pointing dogs are on the ground and the retrievers ride in the wagon and are released once the birds hit the ground.

A brood from a couple of days ago…. Was convenient to have a flushing dog.


https://vimeo.com/619301479

Yea yea yea...every quail hunter needed a lab....give us a break Gil.

My late friend had an English Cocker that he used to retrieve downed quail. It rode on his jeep while his big EPs pointed the birds. We got behind his pointers and flushed the coveys, not his EC. His big pointers were steady to wing and shot and he used the Cocker to retrieve the birds that we downed. Some folks use Labs that also double as duck dogs. No one needs retrievers to hunt quail, nor do they need horses, dog handlers, nor mule drawn wagons, nor jeeps, but that's the way they want to do it. It really shouldn't give anyone else a problem how they prefer to hunt quail especially from those who draw their opinions based upon a vast pool of ignorance.

After the demise of the wild quail people have hunted released birds with all kinds of dogs....(I've hunted released quail with my Boykin).

Back in the day quail hunters used Pointers and Setters they were both very capable of finding any downed birds... never saw one that couldn't.

Pointers and Setters stalked the birds and pushed them into a covey then held point over the birds keeping them in a covey until the hunter arrived...this is only possible because a wild quails defense system makes them get in a covey.

A flushing dog is not capable of doing this.

Why I waste my time explaining this to an ignorant internet nimrod is beyond me.

I Just let us learn on our own, or in my case continue to plod along in my ignorance.
My piddling experience on wild quail spans 62 years and Yes, continues today. I continue to put down Pointers and Setters multiple days a week for a 3 month season every late fall and winter.
I shoot Wild birds, by the way.

That shot went right over their bow Mel...

You may have missed the part about the man pursuing WILD bird, something you have told us that you do not do because they do not exist.

Check your bow.....

There has not been a hunt-able population of wild quail in the south since the early 1980s SteveO'

Texas is still in the South, as is Georgia. You are not paying attention.

I think you will be "safer at home"

Homeless they are not burning "the woods'. They are burning the understory that supports most of the other plants and animals.

“Burning doesn’t work and we have no birds,” suggest sOme. Is it possible some don’t have birds because they don’t burn?
The secret sauce has long been discovered to having plenty of wild birds; it’s largely just a function of landowners implementing a variety of practices on a large enough scale that have been demonstrated repeatedly to work. All the research, particularly for east of the Mississippi, shows that quail prefer to nest in areas that were either burned or disturbed 2 years before.
Some even say that there used to be birds before management practices were implemented. May be some truth to that, especially if those practices include fire prevention, for as we know, wildfires used to be left to do their thing. Smokey Bear syndrome on federal, state, and most private lands has been a huge culprit.

I was a co-owner in a 2350 acre ranch is West Texas until about 2 1/2 years ago. Four -Five years ago, we would have 30-50 coveys of pointed Bobs a day. About nine or ten years ago we had a wild fire that consumed 3/4 of the ranch. It was scary looking at the sand desert after the fire. It came back beautifully and produced some of the best quail years we ever had. The last few years have not been too good for quail in W Texas. Most of the blame rest with weather conditions and rain at the right times. Habitat changes little in Cowboy Country. I'm looking forward to what this year will bring as I limitedly hunt on friend's ground.
Bob Jurewicz

Here in the mixed-grass prairie, the talls grow just above the meadows, the mids next, and then the shorts on the hilltops. Gotta remember that multiple burns are required to allow the native plants to begin to outgrow the invaders, especially Kentucky bluegrass. After that, recommendations for livestock producers are about once every four years. Trouble is many are not set up for rotational grazing. I have one plot I have burned nine times and the natives are flourishing, but no cattle use it. And my target species, smooth brome and Western wheaatgrass, are still common. One of the keys is to burn when the bluegrass is in full flower and the roots are lowest in nutrients. Another problem that develops here under idle conditions is the movement of low prairie species upslope because of increased soil moisture. For example, some say it takes at least 20 burns to get buckbrush (Symphoricarpos) back to the low prairie that it originally flourished in. Season long grazing is another problem to be avoided if prairie restoration is the goal as is use of herbicides as they are not species specific.

I’ve twice witnessed a red tailed Hawk take a quail."

I saw that once when hunting birds and those hawks will never attack another quail.

My hunting buddy and I run a string of Brittanys, two of his, and two of mine (The MuttPak), primarily for woodcock with an occasional bonus of wild quail. In a season we might run into 5 or 6 coveys which would be what folks in parts of TX and SW Ga. might find in an hour of hunting. We do what we can over the season assisted only by boot leather, shotguns and shells. But we do it on public land which we have hundreds of thousands of acres to chose from with no competition in the woodcock woods. Our Britts do a good job in all aspects of the hunt from finding, pointing, holding and retrieving. They're not high rollers like big running pointers or setters, but then neither are we, but we go 25-30 times a season and always look forward to the next. As Aldo Leopold wrote: “I cannot explain why a red rivulet is not a brook. Neither can I, by logical deduction, prove that a thicket without the potential roar of a covey of quail is only a thorny place. Yet every outdoorsman knows that this is true..." To that, I would add "to the roar of covey of quail" the twitter of a woodcock. Gil

I've seen red-tailed hawks go after quail many times, and miss. I've seen them catch rabbits with a much higher regularity. But smaller hawks, like Cooper's, Sharp-shinned, Blue darters, etc. ........... they seldom miss a quail. They are awesome in their ability to target and kill a prey. And, the smaller hawks are not prejudiced. They take songbirds at any opportunity. I've seen them in pursuit of a songbird which was fleeing for it's life, with the hawk in hot pursuit. I've never seen the smaller hawks give up in a pursuit. They are relentless.

Back to the subject matter of what the OP originally introduced: A tribute to wild bobs. Here's my above mentioned hunting bird-doggin' buddy's artistic tribute to wild bobs: a life-sized painted and carved in wood bobwhite. A few of his works sit in plantation homes in the SW of GA and N. FL quail plantation homes. The grasshopper, leaves--everything seen was carved and painted by Floyd:

Texas is not considered the South and Georgia lost their wild quail same time Tennessee did.

In Henry Davis's book "Hunting with a .22" he claims that one Redtail hawk in an area will wipe out the quail population....he wrote of a Sunday afternoon drive in South Carolina where he shot 67 hawks.

I personally have met one Hawk man.

A few wild Georgia quail... Overwhelming preposterous to pontificate we don't have any, and even more so to be completely unaware of the famous quail plantations in our area and the work that Tall Timbers does.


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Famous Quail plantations that work the hunters pocket books is a better description....

Completely false, Frank. Some things you can't buy your way into.

To say that quail have 'disappeared" or "lost" from Georgia is understandable when the statement comes from the vast pool of ignorance present in this thread by our resident expert on quail management and all things quail. Here are a half dozen wild quail Floyd and I took on public land in SW Ga. a few years ago. In a morning's hunt, we had 7 coveyrises of wild birds of which at least one rise was before we could get to our dogs. Gil

Yep, that is ridiculous beyond the extreme. I regularly see wild bobs during the day, as I go about my farm work.

We all know you see things....I hear a few calling every spring but they never make it to a huntable population.

Ps...If Ames Plantation couldn't being them back you bozOs in Georgia can't.

Unlike your neighbors in Tennessee, we don't have to bring them back as they never left. Of course Ames Plantation has to use released birds in order to host their championship. That's actually a very sad occurrence as the best dogs from around Georgia work on wild birds and the whole released bird thing to determine a champion is a relatively weak alternative. That's why The Continental, a true wild bird championship, is actually a more highly regarded title for the guys that have the best dogs.
Stunning the ignorance you display every time you post, Frank.

I wonder exactly where we should draw the line that separates truly wild quail from released pen raised birds? And do pen raised birds magically achieve wild bird status after surviving go some period of time in the wild? Finally, are there some defining characteristics that would positively identify a shot quail as a truly wild bird?

I ask this because I worked with a guy who had a sideline business of hatching out and raising both quail and pheasants, which he sold mostly to private game farms. So if these private paid hunting preserves buy and release pen raised birds, there is always the possibility that some may beat the odds, and survive until the next year, and perhaps even breed. So at some point, are they to be considered truly wild, and are their progeny truly wild? I'd guess that some of these massive, exclusive, and prosperous quial plantations must do some stocking in addition to their other management.

Back when my state still had decent numbers of ringneck pheasants, our Game Commission at some point began supplementing the dwindling population with stocked birds. One high school buddy's Dad was a Deputy Game Warden who did a lot of the stocking in my County. Once when we stopped at his house for my friend to grab more shells, his Dad came out and examined our bag so far. He told us that he was certain that the two big ringnecks I had shot were wild native birds, and explained that stocked males would have beaks trimmed and spurs clipped off to prevent them from mauling each other in captivity. He also said that the stocked males would not have the size or long tail feathers my birds had. He went on to say that it would be difficult to differentiate a stocked hen from a smaller native hen.

I pretty much switched over to ruffed grouse hunting when it became apparent that native ringnecks were all but extinct. I still am not excited by the prospect of paying extra for a pheasant tag for the privilege of shooting pen raised birds on State Game Lands. A lot of guys have themselves convinced that is hunting, but I'd rather chase wild grouse birds even if it means driving further and coming home empty handed a lot more often.

You're full of it...you could tell in the videos you posted those dogs were trained on released birds.

During spring gobbler season I hear a lot of quail whistling in the morning. I get a kick out of whistling them up. Gil

Always look forward to your "brilliant" posts, Frank. Such "wise" depth and insight. You prove my point again and again. What's next? Think we should move on to your belief that the moon landing was staged on a Hollywood lot?

I hear them too Gil but they don't survive in hunt able numbers....

One thing I do know is Georgia has probably released more quail than all states combined.

That’s awesome.

Contrary to our expert on all things quail and bird dogs, but good luck training or correcting a puppy on wild birds exclusively without using either pigeons or boxed quail.

With all due respect, I find that disagree with the post immediately above. I train exclusively on Wild birds reared on this ranch......Always have.

I really don't want to get too far afield from Stan's thoughtful thread topic.
I would be amenable to discussing it further, either here or elsewhere, if it didn't distract from the intent of the OP
I won't digress into spiteful innuendos or thinly veiled insults, nor will I long endure them, especially when they are delivered via a keyboard.
While on that subject, I find that so much of what could be well intentioned discussion and request for knowledge posted here can be ruined by petty bickering and put downs.
Good shooting to all, it is THE Best Time of every year.

I would agree with your thoughts, Frank, on the number of released birds in Georgia and respectfully acknowledge that this might be one thing that you do know. The commercial quail hunting biz is big here, and for most people is their only avenue to continue to hunt these special birds while enjoying the traditions that go with it. Wild birds simply can't handle a steady diet of hunting pressure, which is one of the many reasons that you noticed me mostly just shooting in the air in the training videos I posted earlier.
The year-round cost to manage a property for quail to anywhere near its peak, while substantially forgoing the economic returns that most landowners require, all but forces them to carefully limit hunting pressure to family and friends, which no doubt prevents so many of our fellow hunters from enjoying the same opportunity.
There are some well-managed wild bird public opportunities in Georgia but they, too, hold a very limited resource in their piney woods.
I'm pretty passionate about all this as the thrill of a covey rise is simply one of the greatest things an upland hunter can experience. I'm looking forward to helping other land owners improve their management techniques at a Field Day in few weeks before hosting a Southern Regional Wild Bird Field Trial in January. Not every landowner can copy the game plan of the many great plantations around me that are able to dismiss all economic aspirations and focus purely on maximizing Gentleman Bob, but the rest of us that have similar goals can find a balance, and by doing so, it's a thrill to enjoy the many victories you feel when your dogs lock up on a covey and you realize that it's not only your pups that tremble in excitement.

I spoke this week with a friend whose plantation he manages is near Tall Timbers. Three radio collared birds are on his place nesting having crossed over from TT. He won't start blocking until they are through nesting which would be soon. Apparently they are re-nesters as the earlier nests were most likely raided by snakes--pine, rat, etc. If it had been a cottonmouth, the hens would have been taken by the snake as well. Gil

Claiming you have wild quail is good for business....keep releasing them and hope for the best. The wild quail is not extinct in the South they're just not in huntable numbers like they used to be.

With a good dog I have several spots that you could find a covey on maybe even two....years ago there was at times 8 or 10 coveys or more on these same 2 to 500 acre farms should a sportsman hunt them into extinction. A lot of farms we hunted we never hunted singles because there were so many coveys....unlike a dove shooter quail men were consevatives.

Like New England pheasants a few released birds will survive a season or maybe even two....but they seldom reproduce into huntable populations. Once the releasing stops the populations dwindle.

Nice to think you hunted something truly wild....fact is a lot of the younger generations in the South will never hunt a wild quail unless they go to Texas or somewhere in the midwest

Great report....sounds like a why did the chicken cross the road joke....quess you didn't know they will nest more than once a year.

Predatory hawks can be controlled in quail habitat by trapping, it's just that to do so is illegal. What's reasonable in allowing trapping of mammalian predators, even the killing of stray cats on sight, and not allowing the control of avian and reptilian? People have a strange sense of priorities sometimes, it seems to me.

Awhile back SC Wildlife Outdoors magazine reported research by SCDNR and Clemson that in some areas of SC, quail changed habitat preferences and were found in bottomland regions and swamps more so than on the hill where traditionally they were found. Food sources included acorn particles resulting from deer and squirrel activity.
Stan, this happened not to far from here:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sc/pr/major-federal-wildlife-prosecution-south-carolina-plantation

It is interesting how the view on some predators has changed now that they are able to so closely monitor nesting activity along with studies on predation on radio-collared birds. For example, Stoddard thought that field mice were nest predators and discussed such in his famous book. They've since learned that they're not problematic, and in fact are beneficial to quail by providing an alternative food source to avian predators. Many of the other assumed nest predators are actually not as bad as once thought, while others are worse.
Many of our area plantations now trap year-round using cell signals to let them know when a trap has been caught something. This can really save time when making the rounds to check traps. There's also a guy around here that comes in for 2 week intervals and traps the big stuff, such as bobcats and even coyotes. I've used him a few years but he's pretty expensive and I quickly realized that I was low on the priority list compared to the large plantations that use him religiously year after year. I wasn't able to get him, for example, until June and July, while others got him in long before nesting season. You also soon realize that without a full court press on predators, the impact can be marginal since what you take out can be replaced somewhat soon as the void is filled.
Managing habitat and keeping plenty of areas in place for bird safety seems to make a huge difference, especially as I continue to see a steady increase in my covey count, which has about doubled over the past 5 years.
The fall shuffle should begin in week or so. As you know, that's one of the best times to get a good determination of this year's birds. If you enjoy that sort of thing, the DNR is currently looking for volunteers to help with the morning counts on their public properties.

Gil what does your reply have to do with anything Stan said.....what I'd like to see out of Stan is a list of poisons he is spraying on his crop fields.

Spring'a'madOOdle my view on predator control has never changed....they need killing just keep your mouth shut about it.

Ps...Georgia DNR biologists suck.

Fire ants can't be helping. I'd worry about them a lot more than raptors. But some folks are born to be poachers.

And sometimes that isn't enough. The book, Coyotes of the South, reported that game biologists conducted a study at the Savannah River Plant (known locally as the "bomb plant") wherein intervaginal transmitters were inserted into pregnant does so that biologists could home in quickly to the site of birth to determine fawn survival at birth. There were extensive losses due to coyotes as established by DNA analysis on the fawn remains. Over 500 coyotes were removed from the area of study. After the removal, the rate of fawn predation pretty much remained the same as other coyotes quickly moved into the area.
To lessen the impact of predation on quail, food plots have been deemphasized and periodic broadcasting of food trails are common on some plantations to spread out the birds to keep them from concentrating on food plots which also concentrated predators. Perhaps that is part of your of your management as well. Gil

It's interesting how there has been a pretty significant sea-change in the opinion about the need for food plots on actively managed plantations. For the most part, they are now a thing of the past, with discing and year-round feeding taking their place. Discing is easier, cheaper, and more nutritious for quail as the weeds that come up harbor bugs, which are full of protein and great for both young and mature birds. Discing is also a way to reduce habitat after nesting is over and helps somewhat concentrate the birds. Ragweed, for example, is great habitat during the summer, but when fall arrives and it loses its foliage, it has little value. Discing it under, which also replants it for the next spring, can help move birds into other areas. Most of your large plantations are now reducing habitat by about 20% before the season, which is how they end up with something around 2 birds/acre.
FWIW, I eliminated food plots about 6 or 7 years ago (used to plant milo and occasionally some oat strips through the pines), and just redirected that effort into year-round feedings on 2-week intervals. Amazing the difference it has made in bird numbers.
You do still see some places planting pretty food plots for quail, but much of that is on commercial spots that are concerned with aesthetics.


Here are examples of what we don’t do anymore. I certainly can’t say that they didn’t have benefit, but whatever we may have gotten wasn’t worth the costs or anywhere nearly as effective as just running feed lines throughout the year.

50 years ago, hunters in the western states were killing and poisoning coyotes. And eastern and southern hunters weren't even having this conversation. In addition, avian predator numbers were still relatively low due to decades of trapping, shooting, and even States paying bounties to keep them under control.

The bounties on hawks and owls stopped before I was old enough to hunt. Trapping declined greatly too, for various reasons. And watching the spread of the Eastern Coyote leaves me convinced that they all did not move east and South naturally. Call me a conspiracy nut, but the big explosion in coyote population came as the number of deer/vehicle collisions got really bad. I truly believe that either Game Commissions or Insurance companies, or both, embarked on introducing coyotes to control deer reproduction by decreasing fawn mortality due to predation. There is even evidence that they are hybridized with wolves. One mangy coyote I shot a few years ago in my field was just shy of 5 feet long from nose to tail. My friends who formed a local coyote hunting club have shown me pictures of coyotes that are large enough to kill most hunting dogs.

We have seen that an established coyote population is very efficient at killing fawns. Problem is, they are also very efficient at killing everything else from mice, to game birds, to rabbits, and even smaller predators such as fox and feral cats..

This wouldn't be the first time well meaning biologists have introduced an invasive species, and the experiment went wrong. You will never get them to admit this either. I will try to do my part by putting a bullet in every coyote I possibly can. But our best hope is for some virus or disease that kills coyotes, but not our dogs. Hawks are another problem. There are enough of them that I have no problem with those who shoot, shovel, and shut-up. They are not endangered, but our Game birds are barely hanging on, even with supplemental stocking.

The fire ants showed up in Tennessee in the late 1970s....the quail disappeared shortly after.