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Originally Posted by GLS
energy density

Is that a new term you thought up ?

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Here is a screen shot of calculations for #4 Chilled Lead shot at 1100 fps muzzle velocity with the maximum distance for penetration of not less than 1.5" into ballistic gel.
Calculations are in the lower right hand corner above the calculate button.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

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Here are the results of #9 TSS. Note the material drop down menu is in display mode listing the types of shot the program can analyze. Gil
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

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Gil I think you have gone nuts.


I am not shooting 1100 fps....and I am not shooting #4 chilled shot at ballistic jell.


I'm shooting 1200 fps with Copperplated #4 lead shot encapsulated in some type of liquid buffer that hardens around the shot.

A turkey is a thin skinned bird that's easy to kill if you hit them in the head or neck. A turkeys bones are light weight because they were made for flight....doesn't take much in the way of a pellet to break a turkeys bones.

Read and reread the above sentence if you need to "thin skinned bird that's easy to kill".


That is why idiots can kill them with #9 fairly dust sized shot.


I do not like a bunch of shot in my hard earned meat.

RelAx....go out this morning and shoot a pattern with your TSS pixie dust sized shot send it to your buddies and ya'll can sit around the computor and have a circle jerk while counting your 500 pellets in a 10" circle.


You are wasting your time trying to prove this nonsense to me.


Your time would be better spent banging that harder than TSS head of yours against a tree.

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>>>A turkey is a thin skinned bird that's easy to kill if you hit them in the head or neck. A turkeys bones are light weight because they were made for flight....doesn't take much in the way of a pellet to break a turkeys bones.<<<

jOe, I am glad that you understand this now. We tried to explain it to you 15 years ago, but I didn't think you ever understood our argument.

It doesn't make any difference how much a pellet weighs, or even how much energy it carries. The only that matters is that the pellet is able to penetrate the head and neck bones at a reasonable hunting range, and years of shooting tss #9 has proven that it most certainly will do that. The smaller the pellet is, the more you can get into the shell and that makes it possible to produce denser patterns that are sure to hit bones if you are aiming your gun at the head/neck of the turkey.

I hunted them for years with #4 lead and there is no doubt in the world that those pellets would crush the bones of a turkey. The issue with them is there aren't nearly as many pellets as in the #9 tss, and that means that if your aim is a little off and only the edge of the pattern hits the turkey, it's very possible that none of the pellets actually hits a bone, and the turkey runs or flys away with shot in him. I remember that you posted on another forum that you had a season when you shot at 13 gobblers and killed only 7 of them. Any experienced turkey hunter knows that you didn't likely "miss" the 6 that got away; they all left there with shot in them. Some probably recovered, some probably didn't. There is a lot less chance of that happening with tss, though l think many hunters take away the real advantage of tss by setting their guns up with chokes that are too tight.

So the only real legitimate concern about shooting turkeys with tss is that it's possible to put a lot more pellets into the meat. I think an experienced hunter can eliminate this by shooting the turkey when he is in the right posture, and just making sure that you aim properly. It is about 16" from the top of a mature gobbler's head to the base of his neck. Here is a picture of a tss pattern I have handy, and it was shot with a 20 gauge gun with only a modified choke at 40 yards. This was when I was experimenting with a sxs gun and it shows the typical effect with a turkey load of the right barrel shooting to the right. That is a 10" circle drawn around the core of the pattern, so anyone can do the math and see that there is no reason to put shot into the breast if you are a decent shot. As you well know, the most important thing in making a clean kill is to have the turkey standing up straight with his head and neck exposed when you pull the trigger.


[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

I wouldn't try to claim that I have never put any tss into a turkey breast, but I can honestly say that it has happened no more often with tss than it did with lead. If one is really concerned about it, I would suggest trying #7 tss. There are a lot fewer pellets than the #9 has, but it still has more than a #4 lead load. I have shot them with tss size 7, 8, 8.5, 9, 9.5 and even shot a couple with 10s. My conclusion is that it doesn't make much difference; any of them will kill the turkey if you have the gun on him.

I wouldn't expect you to want to change after a lifetime of using #4 lead. I once killed 22 in a row with my SBE and Winchester Supremes #4. The biggest advantage of the tss for me is that I can carry a very light 20 gauge gun and it has way less recoil than the 12, and is every bit as effective. Good luck in your hunting.

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Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
I met Don Zutz at a skeet shoot at my local club, when I was a 30 something, and bought a few of his books. He had written what I had spent my time discovering to that point, a 1 ounce load of 6s out of something that you would hunt in the upper Midwest was about perfect.
IIRC, Mr. Zutz used #6 to hunt grouse without a dog because #7 was not available and #7.5 was inadequate. He did quite a rant in "Handloading For Hunters" about the rise of #7.5 and the fall of #7. Either way, he preferred shot larger than #9.


Caution: Hunting and fishing stories told here. Protective footgear may be required.
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Coosa I've understood it from the git go...I'm a good a shot as most...maybe even better than a few but not many people are Annie Oakley.

(By the way that little swarm of pixie dust sized shot n the picture looks to be way off....)

One thing I do know is I talk personally almost weekly with turkey hunters from all over the country with varying degrees of skill....hardly a month goes by that someone new calls me and talks turkey hunting, calling and turkey guns.

Most know how I feel about people that shoot that small shot...most won't admit they fell for the fA iry dust until they realize it was all bull.
A few I even blocked their numbers because they sent me a picture of a Turkey they shot with a .410 loaded with tss pixie dust size #9 shot....life is too short to waste time on idiots.

Most have to learn on their own the hard way....(some might never learn).

Once they figure out they been had then the hOrror stories start to flow....

Blown off wings....meat shot to hell and back....I knocked him down chased him and shot him two more times knocked him down each time and I never got him....teeth cracked on TSs #9 pixie dust size shot...last year a guy blew a hole in the turkeys body next to his wing lucky his second shot finished him off. The picture looked bad....more than a few have killed turkeys that had TSs #9s in the meat

Truth is I don't feel I need a hummingbird proof pattern to kill a turkey and I don't need that much shot to kill a turkey.

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keep it up jOe...cum on here an kill off dim turkey varmints, sos mebbe de grouses will cum back...

an while you at hit...we could do wid ah lot less o dim hiker types from massataxus, as well...ware yo turkey huntin costume...an maybe jes scare erm enough dat day will run back down to thu peoples republic...an leave us alone...


keep it simple and keep it safe...
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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Coosa you and Gil don't be skeered by them #4 size holes....why would I need to shoot a turkey with a #9 size pellet.

I know you guys like to use the ol'heavy gun argument....If it gets where you can't tote a 7 or 8 lb 12 gauge gun might be time to stay on the pOrch.

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jOe, I said in my post that the pattern was off; it was the first shot I fired using a tss load in that 20 gauge sxs. It was a challenge to get it to shoot both barrels to the same POA, but I finally managed it. The point I was trying to make is that there is no reason to put shot into the breast if you know what you are doing.

I didn't like the idea of such small shot as #9 either when we first started handloading it 15 years ago. I started with #8 in a 12 gauge gun. A tss pellet that is #8 by diameter weighs what a size 6.4 would in lead. I have killed a good many turkeys with #6 lead, so I felt like #8 tss would work. It actually worked much better than I ever expected, and I eventually realized it was overkill and went to a 20 gauge. I still used #8 for a while, but so many folks were having success with #9 that I decided to try them. I had great results with them, but as I said in the other post, I don't think it really matters. The edge of the pattern is denser with #9, giving me a little more room for aiming error, but the advantage is very minor over size 8 or even 7.

If you go to a larger size than 7, you get fewer pellets in the load and you might as well use lead if we are talking about turkeys. As you said, doesn't take much to break a turkey's head or neck.

Well, I am not far from needing to stay on the porch. I got my AL 5 bird limit this past spring, but next year they are starting the season later and cutting the limit to 4. I don't think it will be long before they cut it to 2, and then one. There are more turkeys on the places I hunt than ever, but the government is not gonna let us continue to hunt them like they have during my lifetime. It looks like I picked a good time to get old.

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