doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Damascus explained

"But at what point did it turn from utility to art?"

This is a great discussion, relevant to double guns, and certainly a subject of some academic interest. I'm suggesting it started the other way around; an attempt at decorative metallic art was fortuitously found to be of superior utility. Was it function following form??
Gotta be someone out there with genuine credentials that has thought about this. Will keep looking-sure glad Al Gore invented the internet! Jack: have another drink then check some of the calligraphic patterns here
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/ihame/Ref3.htm

Well said Doug,
Not that I know anything about identifying American Indian artifacts, but don't ethnic anthropologists identify (say) a fragment of pottery or a rug, as being Navaho (or some other tribe), by the similarities of patterns that appear on their handmade objects? The manufacture of pottery and techniques of rug weaving are even more different than weaving rugs is to weaving damascus.
It likely that Rev's observation is appealing to my notion that at least SOME mass produced damascus was done with WOVEN and rolled wires, rather than stacked bars and straps. I'm convinced that rolled damascus was far cheaper to produce than the hand hammered older brother, and for that reason dominated the market. When somebody claims to have a hand hammered double (I call it a samurai gun) I figure it had better be percussion or earlier. except in rare cases like the Schilling that John Mann posted a photo of recently. One thing for sure, it's not beyond the realm of possibility to think that someone might carry their concept of ornamentation or weaving from one handmade object to a different medium of handmade objects. In fact it's quite plausable...(and without psychedelic drugs)
One question to ask is...does Mohammed's Ladder appear on any rugs of middle eastern origin? Personaly, I don't think the Persian or Indian blade patterns look much like the (woven) damascus crolle barrels that we are comparing them to...but the similarities between the writing and the rugs...makes me think that he's onto something worth examining.

revdocdrew:

How then can we seperate, or unwind, the utility and art, or from and function, as it is has been wound in history much to the like of unwelding a Damascus barrel or blade to see it's humble beginnings? From a technical background, I would assume(antithesis of exactitude) that art would have been applied to, derived from or composed of technical innovation.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey-

Interesting inquiry and it goes to the heart of the matter. Utility and art are not mutually exclusive concepts and often in nature and in man's pursuits when form most closely follows function , even such things as soup can labels, we find what can be appreciated as art.

I am looking at my display case right now where I have among many interesting things, an old family Testament and an arrowhead. The bible is signed and dated in 1828 in what was common penmanship of the day. The arrowhead I found in our front pasture some 40 years ago when I was walking home from school one day.

Is the work of these individuals, who would hardly have considered themselves artists strictly a question of function or is there some artistry or self-expression at work in this? This is subjective; each, the common written word and the arrowhead served very utilitarian purposes, but in them, at least to my eye there is also art.

Doug

Mohammed's ladder, kirk narduban or the Ladder of the Prophet pattern from a Kurdish dagger, with several "rungs" of the ladder which are alterations in the background pattern running perpendicular to the length of the blade.
http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/patterns/pat05.html



And Raimey is likely correct.

Unless I mistake, stocks, receivers and possibly barrels have all been overlaid with carbon fiber composite. The fact that the chosen resin is transparent and the roving pattern visible IDs the material and the construction method. How many would choose such a gun based on aesthetics? OK, some of us would as the appearance attests novelty and being the first on your block etc.

It is interesting that so much of the current aesthetic limits decoration in favor of seamless, smooth all-of-a-piece surfaces--huge extrusions, acres of plate glass, undifferentiated chunks of polymer. Too bad. I've always thought that gunhammers should look like cocks or sea dragons and windoors should have many tiny bottle bottom "lights", preferably about 12 over 12.

Pete brings up the inability to see beyond your experience. Railway coaches initially looked precisely like a coach without the four but with a single "iron horse" out front.

I don't see any problem with blades being laminar and barrels not being merely laminar. If once upon a time in the west someone applied the word Damascus to a "state-of-art" technology, they were certainly paying tribute to its co-opted antecedents in furrin parts.

jack

Doug:

In your case, calligraphy was a style which was used by the esquire types, learned individuals, in the propagation of history(who belonged to who, what belonged to who and how much is who indebted to whom). In being a student of history required by my profession, I have read countless pages of documents in calligraphy and from first staring at one page for a day(much like the Spanish ships referred to in an earlier post) I am able to read it without incident. But it takes time and effort. In a short amount time in the line of history, we are at 1st paralized upon seeing the form. The Lost Lake point, or whichever it is, was a tool for survival. I have a good friend who is a napper and can make a duplicate of any point shown to him. But 1st the arrowhead was a tool. Now it is displayed as art which really depicts the lifestyle and times of the original user. And I'm not considering the jewelry and the like the Indians valued or traded.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

You lost me at widoors...are you referring to windows that are made up of spun glass centers (that kinda resemble the bottoms of coke bottles)? Those aren't bottle bottoms, those are the thick, less tranparent centers of large panes of window glass left over from tin-float glass production.

Here is the problem...we don't have that mind set anymore...years back men knew basically that carbon could be folded into the composite steel...even though the metalurical molecular absorbtion wasn't understood...it stands to reason that one fold won't do it and the more the folds, the more uniformly or thoroughly the carbon was folded in, resulting in a stronger material. The more the folds, the stronger the steel. This type of mind set travelled well...even to the cowpoke out west, buyin' a furrin gun...I believe that it was this mind set that drove barrel industry to produce finer and finer damascus.

We have such along way to go in our understanding of damascus...how are we ever going to deal with the "false gates" that were used to protect the trade secrets...

Good point, Robt. about the cheap panes in the center. I forgot or never knew. Yesterday's cheap is today's artistic. Does however make my point that the prisoners of antique fashion can not always easily distinguish conscious artistry from the residue of process. The conjecture of a wire rather than rod and strap bundle is interesting also. Would that explain the capability to "bring up" names on damascus ribs?

jack

Exactly, thank you for making the point about the name