doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Interesting Simson 16 Gauge Boxlock

I just picked up an interesting 16 gauge Simson to use as a grouse and preserve pheasant gun, mostly because I still have about 7 flats of 16 gauge ammo of various types. It's a boxlock, in very good condition other than some minor freckling and bluing wear on the barrels, most of which cleaned up with the application of some gun oil and rubbing with the edge of an older copper penny.

The gun has nearly all of its case colors and a better than average piece of wood, especially for German boxlock in the price range below $1000, and lacks the usual cheekpiece, which leads me to believe it was intended for a market other than Germany. It also has two interesting features, neither of which I noticed when I ordered the gun on line.

The first feature is a double barrel lug, one under each barrel, rather than a single, centrally mounted lug. I've seen photos of such lugs, but never actually handled a gun with them before. I'm not sure of the why one would do that, but they appear to function, so they aren't an issue.

The second feature is a full set of British Birmingham nitro proof markings, including the BNP, 2-1/2" and 3 tons stampings. I have never seen a German gun with British proofs before, but there they are, sharp as the day they were applied. I'm wondering if the gun came home from the wars in some Tommy's duffel and then was redone after having provided yeoman service to its owner, with the bores honed enough to require reproof. I have no idea how it ended up in the U.S.

The bores are .667 and .669 and the chokes are IC/M, which will be perfect for my intended usage. Barrel wall thicknesses are in the 30s and 40s. The chambers are marked as 2-1/2", but the guy operating the reamer must have leaned a bit hard on it the day he bored them as they measure 67mm in the left barrel and 68mm in the right barrel. The forcing cones are quite short and I'm considering having them lengthened, as I'll probably shoot 2-3/4 inch low pressure reloads as a standard fare. Measuring the Remington, Winchester (compression formed) and Herter's (the newer Cabela's type) fired hulls gives me 68, 69 and 68 mm respectively, so I don't think that should be a problem.

I'll try to get some photos of the barrel lugs and the proof markings this weekend and post them.

In the meantime, have you ever seen a German double with British proofs?

40X,
Based on your description( photos would be better), you have a Simson- Jaeger. Franz Jaeger, the grandfather of the German Gun Collectors Assn. founder, was the designer. The double lugs makes it more stabile (side to side). Also I think you will find it doesn't have a hinge pin, rather it has a solid round lug milled into each side, these being larger than a typical hinge pin. The locking lugs are likely covered by plates, rather than being let into the action. Drillings made on this action were not as thick as common drillings, because the locking lugs would be next to the rifle barrel, instead of under it. This action was available in hammer and hammerless form. Does it have both British and German proofs ? If it was a war trophy, it would carry both. If it was made for export to England it wouldn't have to have German proofs. It is a good find.
Mike

That should be one of the Franz Jaeger patent guns please post pics? Does it have removable side plates?
Seems to be very strong action I have a Belgium Record version of same patent.
Long thread about them here under englebert clever blitz. https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=578370&page=1

Also Gunwolf and Raimey sent me here for info https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=266958 Great guys!
http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/archives/archive-jaeger-franz/

I believe that at one time German proof marks ceased to be recognised by the British Proof authorities as being applied by “enemy aliens”.

It may be that the then owner was told he had to submit it to British proof before he was lawfully able to sell it.

Finally got around to taking the photos and transferring them to a hosting site:

Is it a blitz action?

I don’t know and I am ham handed enough not to try stripping the action myself. Most of the screws are near perfect.

Very nice find and yes it most certainly should be a trigger plate action with that patent. Usually frame under trigger guard(trigger plate) is little wide on a blitz. Nice gun!

It:

Thanks. I feel very fortunate to have acquired it and early indications are that I shoot it well. I’ll play with it some more before sending the barrels off to be reblued and the chokes opened a bit, as I want to use it as my primary grouse gun. Right now, when I’m on a clay bird, all that’s left is a dust cloud in the air and I don’t think a grouse should be similarly treated.

Rem

and just why is that, Remmie? Nothing builds confidence in the gun in the hands of a skilled bird hunter that to see a cloud of body feathers hanging the in October afternoon breeze- as Nash Buckingham described in his article "The Dove"also fewer cripples for your dog to find (before the Fox and 'Yote brotherhood take over. My favorite grouse gun, back i the 1970's-whe I had a fine Setter female (out of the Mississippi Zev Bloodlines, was a LeFever 20 bore Durston Special-28" barrels DT- have no idea how it was choked, it fit me perfectly and I didn't miss many grouse or woodcock over Maggie's solid points with that scattergun.

Sounds like you have another shotgun with this Simson "Blitz" actioned 16-- Blitz being German for "Lightning"-hope it is all you could ever want in a bird gun. Ever read the older issues of Gray's-1970's- era. with Ed Gray at the helm. Fall 1977 issue- there is a splendid poem by a native Keystone State grouse hunter- Don Titus-if memory serves--Robert Abbett Fall scene with a Setter and two grouse taking wing(s)- Best poem I've yet read about the mystique of grouse hunting. RWTF

several questions/comments....as i am currently pursuing a simson/jaeger with herold markings, and there's not a wealth of information re these interesting guns;

does this gun have the "herold" marking? i understand that jaeger produced guns into the early 1930's, but i have never seen one of the verschluss guns with a serial number as high as this example. i note the suhl "nitro" marks, so assume it's 1912 or later, but don't see the german date stamp (starting 1924?)....but there are some marks obscured by later british stamps....and i see the crown & R's, but don't see the usual cross and letter/number stamp that would indicate date of british reproof.

at any rate it is a handsome gun, and for me, an interesting variation....and i hope you enjoy it.

best regards,
tom

while i was considering this simson/jager https://www.gunbroker.com/item/893510026 which was nice, but over priced (imo - seller didn't seem to think so....)

i stumbled onto this example, in a shop in new york state https://gunsandbows.net/product/fra...l-length-is-28-34-serial-number9944-617/

it is in nice shape, with an amazing amount of case colors intact....seller says 2.75" chambers - but that remains to be seen. seller has sent me several decent cell phone photos of the action body - but none of proofs. interestingly, the floor plate has the typical "herold" markings, but not the "simson jager verschluss" markings that (usually) accompany the former.

at any rate, fellow was nice and helpful...price seems reasonable, and payment was sent yesterday....we shall see.

best regards,
tom

i have in hand the jager "herold" 12g referenced above. the gun is in astonishing condition, as close to 100% cc as i can imagine, neither wood nor metal show any significant usage. original horn buttplate is gone....cut to 14.2 inches on a pachmayr recoil pad (at least it's not a white line...) otherwise the gun appears untouched, all screws are clean, and contrary to what the seller told me it is an ejector gun - the extractors fit so tightly on their face that at a glance they appear to be a single piece of metal. he had also told me it was a 2&3/4 chambered gun, but it is still 65mm with unaltered cones. FLUSSTAHL KRUPP ESSEN...bores measure .721-2, and chokes at left 40 thou, and right 25 thou...6# 13oz and nicely balanced. judging from the jager catalogs, i believe it to be a model 3E, with ornamented side clips and the typical "catseyes". judging by my searches, side clips and ejectors seem to always be together.

gun has typical post 1912 - pre 1924 suhl proofs....but there are two marks that i am curious about; chambers are marked with 12 encircled, and beside them are 13 with what at a glance looks like 13/1....but on closer inspection it appears to be 13 with a script M, almost touching the 13. have never seen this mark - could it mean muzzle? that would be accurate for the left bore, not so much for the right.

and the second question regards two stampings "GERMANY" in very small block letters; once on the barrel at 9 o'clock on the left chamber area, and another in the wood near the end of the left side panel (about where a tear drop would be found on an english gun). those would seem to indicate the gun was intended for export, and may not be original factory markings (?).

at any rate it is a lovely gun, with dimensions that seem to fit me nicely, and i am pleased to have found a nice example of something i have looked for several years.

best regards,
tom

Great to hear, show us some pics. I have yet to find or hear of these guns being loose or off face. Congrats!

greybeardtmm3,
The 12 in a circle shows the gun has( at time of proof) a standard 12 ga( 65mm) chamber. The 13/1 is the diameter of the bore, ahead of the chamber, expressed in gauge measurement and works out to 18.26mm.
Mike

I owned a 12 GA Franz Jaeger Herold in the same configuration except my gun had a thumb decocking button that acted as a safety. a n outstanding shotgun. if it had been a 16 bore I would never have donated it to the RGS banquet. My gun was very light for a twelve GA. That is why I gave it away. I showed the gun to Detric and he told me some things about it. congratulation on getting a fine gun.