doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Advice on where to seek a first drilling

I've got it in my mind that I want to add a drilling to my gun safe. This despite never actually shooting one and only handling a few of them. I don't have any special need for a shotgun/ rifle combo gun, I just think they are super cool and I love the complexity of the mechanisms and craftsmanship in their construction.
I've read a bit on the subject and believe I have a vision of what I want. I'm thinking a hammerless 16ga double over a standardized but traditional rifle caliber. By standardized, I mean made recently enough to be in a commercially available cartridge such as 7x57R etc. I want to avoid the older doubles in which rifle calibers may be unknown and require a research project and require custom dies.
I'm also enamored with German scopes in detachable claw mounts- even if I've never looked through one and hope I don't get turned off once I actually experience the lack or cheek weld.
Frankly I'd probably use it primarily as an shotgun only for stocked pheasants at my club versus ever having it loaded with shotshells and rifle simultaneously.

My point in posting this here, is where do I shop for specifically for drillings? They are an obscure area of interest, so there isn't a big selection at any local shops to handle. I know that I want to avoid any loose or damaged guns.

I listened to a couple podcasts about an outfit called Save the Fine Guns or German Gun Imports which is supposed to be importing unwanted drillings for Germany and Austria at attractive prices. Yet I can't find any reviews about them online and can't find an easy way to contact them through their website. Does anyone have any experience in dealing with them?

Or any other recommendations on where to best look for drillings?

Jason

Jason ,
German Gun Imports is a pretty new company with nice owners. The German partner, I believe, locates the guns and arranges export to the us. At the present time, Germany seems to be having a harder tine with Covid 19 and are undergoing stricter lockdown than we are. This may , for a short time, result in fewer guns "in stock". You can contact George Inge at 1-251-377-4304, or ginge10216@aol.com. If you call him, I'm sure he can give you up to date information. For info, 6.5x57R, 7x57R, 8x57IR/IRS, 7x65R, and 9.3x74R are all reasonably available in the US at the current time.
Mike

Mike,
Thank you for the reply. That’s just the information I was looking for.
Jason

>>Young Guns<< in South Dakota, did have few lying about. But is sounds as if you are searching for a Post WWII version or even a 1970s Sauer, with many of those in 30-06.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Too, although I have never been a true fan nor thought I would be of sub-gauges, but the Austrian drillings in 20 bore are spectacular. I had preferred the 16 bore to the 12, which is bulky for the most part & Ford can give a dissertation on my the original design of the drilling platform was centred around the 16 bore. Kansas pheasants were as easily harvested with the 3" bore bore vs the heavier 70mm 12 bore I typically tote.

Just some empirical data on my end....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Jason,
In answer to Raimey's comments, I offer the following. I agree that a 12 ga. drilling is too heavy and bulky, noticeably so. Also, I would never consider a drilling in 30-06, even though it is one of my favorite calibers in a bolt gun. Not only would it add to the weight, a rimmed cartridge works much more reliably with a drilling's extractor. I have been hunting with drillings regularly since the mid 1960s and have reached the following conclusions : I prefer 16 ga 2 3/4" chambers and 60cm( about 23 1/2" inches)barrels. A scope is necessary to get full value from a drilling. For general use, i prefer a 6x42 with bright optics( I also have 8x56s for special use, but they add too much weight for general use). I prefer well fit "claw" mounts, but "swing" or "slide on" are also reliable. For the reticle in the scope, I prefer the typical German 3 post , but I used a heavy 4 post with x hair for many years and like it too. After those, any heavy reticle that can be seen in dark, deep woods is ok. You don't need to worry about "cheek weld", which is very important when target shooting, to get the smallest multi- shot group. Here, the idea is to be able to place one bullet where you want it. You shoot a drilling from a head up position usually. A drilling is stocked like a shotgun, because it is a shotgun. While harder to find, there are "Dural" ( aluminum) frame drillings, which are lighter than the steel frames. They hold up, because they have steel inserts in high stress locations. A "sling" is necessary, but never used for shooting( alters the point of contact). I prefer one of the quick shortening slings, that can be shortened in the stand to be out of the way. A rimfire insert barrel ( einstecklauf)( EL) adds to the utility, but should be considered "nice to have", rather than necessary, like a scope and sling. To sum up, I think you are looking for a 16 ga drilling with 60cm barrels, chambered for 6.5, 7, or8mm x 57R , with a 6x42 scope in quick detachable mounts. A proper sling can be bought later. There will be a lot of disagreement from others but you can have short chambers lengthened, and chokes modified to suit yourself. If the drilling is for your use, not for resale, and not an especially rare and/or fine one , there is no reason not to make it useful to you. In my experience, if you sell it later, there will be complaints regardless of whether it has been modified or not. This is usually an effort to have you reduce the price, or as an excuse for not buying it.
Mike

I have three drillings that I hunt with quite a bit.

I wouldn't be afraid of a nice hammer gun. This is a 1907 no-name drilling 16ga/16ga/9.3x72R I picked it up with the head of the stock shattered and put it back together with some new pieces that were missing and re-inleted it. It is now a nice shooter. I killed this coyote in the morning and then shot a nice round of trap with it in the afternoon.



I've made low claw mount rings for one of my drillings from Weaver high rings, tedious but not overly difficult. JP Sauer 16ga/16ga/7x57R, 1970's vintage with low mounted scope, it also has a 6x48mm Nichols scope that I can swap in if I should ever need the larger magnification.



Even odd cartridges can be interesting this is my goto coyote hunting rig in the thick stuff, Wilkes(retailer) 16ga/16ga/6.5x58R Sauer with .260 bore so I swage .264 bullets down but it will shoot .257 well also. This one was kind of butchered and I had to repair the extractor legs and some one had drilled the rib so I put a set of weaver bases on for a low scope, it also has the original Hensoldt 4x scope for the claw mounts.



They are fun, interesting and very useful.

After reading Mikes post, I was typing while he was posting. Different styles of hunting dictate some of the requirements of a gun while Mike finds a high mounted 6x scope practical for his style of hunting, a low mounted scope with a large FOV works for me hunting called coyotes in heavier cover, still hunting whitetails in the northern forests and still gives me fast acquisition close in and MOA rifle options out to a couple hundred yards for those ones that hang up there aways. I have taken ducks and pheasants on the wing with 1x scopes on the way back from coyote stands.

To J. Dubois
In case you have deep pockets and you contemplate to empty these at least partially for a fusil-de-vitrine here are some routes to pursue
1. DGJ summer 2006 had my article on "K & K Hoflieferanten" and on page 62 the photo a Joh.Springer's Erben sidelock drilling.
It still belongs to the son of a late hunting buddy of mine as per my check few minutes ago.
It is one of 2 genuine sidelock drillings built by J .Springer.
Page 60 of this article is featuring another Springer "sidelock" drilling of imperial-family origin.
It turned out it is a "simulated" sidelock / actually a disguised Anson with simulated pins/
My guess: This imperial chap did not pay the gunmakers bill and this Fake-SL is the revenge of the
gunmaker for the never paid/outstanding money.
(If you read R.Beaumont book on Purdey's you will find out that ordering a gun without paying has been as well
an English aristo sickness).
2. On same page the photo of a Joh. Springer hare gun which originally built for and paid by the same Hungarian aristo.
It was on the market few years ago
3.Joh. Springer had in their auctions more than one J. Kalezky sidelock drilling ( see my ariticle Kalezky-ana et al)
4.Dry comment of an Austrian gundealer: I do not know any one who hunts with a drilling , if some one buys
it he will just put it to the other guns in his safe
Cheers
F.N.

felix,
I frequently hunt with a drilling, and usually when not with a drilling, with either an O/U or SxS combination gun.
Mike

Same here

Same here

Bernardelli 12ga/5.6x50R Mag



BRNO 12ga/5.6x52R(22 Savage Highpower)

Simpson LTD always has some drillings in stock and seem to get more imports regularly. Good one are priced fair but go quick, you have to check daily.

I will agree with Ford that a 30-06 chambering will get finicky and I have shot a good bit of 9,3X62 thru one without any issue, but in the end it could have some problems. 8X57IRS along with 7X65R are probably the 2 easiest to acquire factory ammo.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thanks guys. Lots of good information here.
I definitely will be looking for a 16ga over a rimmed rifle cartridge.

Jason,
I addressed German Gun Imports because you asked about them. Recoil Rob mentioned Simpson Ltd. , They are also a viable alternative and I have dealt with them before. Be sure to read the description carefully. If they sell you something that is not as described, they will take it back without a problem, if you call. They sell them "as received" and describe any problem they observe. The German partner in German Gun Imports is a gunsmith and I believe he either doesn't accept those with functional problems or repairs small ones. I believe S&B imports 6.5x57R, 7x57R, 8x57IR, 8x57IRS, 7x65R, 9.3x72R, and 9.3x74R. Their cases are boxer primed and are fully reloadable with American components. Reloading dies are available as production items and custom made dies are not required. Dies for the rimless versions are useable just by using the correct shell holder. I use 7x64 dies to load 7x65R, and 6.5x57, 7x57 to load the rimmed version. I use Lyman 8mm Mauser dies to load 8x57I ,8x57IS, 8x57IR, 8x57IRS, 8x57R/360, and 8x72R. I do this by removing the expander stem for the .318 " cartridges and de-prime by hand. Handloading any of these is straight forward, once you have cases and bullets, so don't worry about that.
Mike

I would like to shime in with a few words about my personal preferences. First, I avoid drillings with Greener safeties, because I find them virtually impossible to manipulate with gloves on, and most of my hunting is done with gloves on. Secondly, I would avoid the Krieghoff "Seperatekugelspannung" (seperate rifle barrel cocking) in favor of another system once offered by Krieghoff and Sauer, which uses a lever on the left side of the action, leaving the top of the pistol grip free for the safety, which operates like that of an ordinary double barrel shotgun.

I used to really enjoy walking around my property with a drilling, ready for anything that appeared, but age and neuropathy in both feet have made that impossible, so I am pretty much confined to a blind.

Before becoming handicapped, however, I was walking down a logging road on my property late in the season, when I spotted a small herd of does in the woods to my right. For some inexplicable reason, they decided to cross the logging road directly in front of me. My J. P. Sauer sidelock 12/12/8X57JRS was loaded with a rifle cartridge and two shotgun slugs and the daily limit then as now was three deer, only one of which could be antlered. I took the opportunity to fire all three barrels. I wish I could report that I scored on all three shots, but only the deer struck by the rifle bullet remained in sight on the ground. A tracking dog might have turned up more, but using dogs for deer hunting was and is illegal in Tennessee.

This is the cocking device on my Sauer drilling, easily activated with the left hand.

[img]https://hosting.photobucket.co...=960&height=720&fit=bounds[/img]

xausa,
I feel for you brother, I too can only hunt from a blind now, and even then only one I can drive to. I never have a problem with a Greener safety, I didn't even before I became "lame". I just held the gun so my thumb pushed it into the stock as it also pushed forward( this is hard to describe, but once learned is easy). Some people have put a "lever" on the button, but this makes it subject to being accidently moved to the "Off" position. In my Krieghoff 16x16-7x65R, the greener safety only works for the shot barrels, and the rifle selector works also as the safety( but doesn't cock it), so for the rifle, only the selector on the tang has to be activated. I have a hand warmer that straps around my waist and don't wear gloves anyway. I really miss following a bird dog around.
Mike

Xausa,

very nice Neptun Drilling.The engraving is lovely, maybe from the same engraver - Karl Feuchter, who worked on many Krieghoff guns :

http://www.hunting-heritage.com/blog/index.php/2021/03/30/krieghoff-drilling-neptun-primus/

Wolfgang

My 16x16/8x57 Nimrod. It's very stiff. It may not be a Greener, it feels more like it's lifting against a cam and then "rolls" over. I showed it to Dietrich Apel several years ago at a Vintagers, he thought it interesting enough to document with photos.

My Sauer hammer drilling is 16X16X11.15X65. The rifle cartridge is a big long .44 caliber variation that is pretty common but hard to find cases for. I have a bag of cases, so I am set for life. It will put a big hole in anything you shoot with it. The top lever selects the rifle barrel and a side lever opens the gun. The rifle barrel is a perfect fit for a 2 1/2" .410, which is exactly 65MM, same as the rifle cartridge. The gun handles the .410s very nicely and doesn't lead up badly at all. I recently let a friend strip, refinish, and point up the checkering. This resulted in a very fancy piece of Juglans Regia, not characteristic of an early Sauer. The Krupp steel gun was made around 1905. A friend sold me this little gem for $200 because he had no practical use for it.

Recoil Rob,
That safety is not a greener type and I think it would not be nearly as prone to being accidently moved to the "off" position as a Greener with a lever or higher button added.
Mike

I wish I had a friend like that.

Sounds like a beautiful gun.

Thank you all gentlemen for your input. There is some useful information here and some beautiful guns shared.
I'd like to add a couple further bits of advice I got as a result of this thread.

1. I had a 16 gauge in my mind because they are going to be slimmer and better to carry afield. After review, I'm more open to a 12 gauge. Truthfully, most of my bird hunting is for stocked pheasants at my club where carrying a heavier gun wouldn't be an obstacle. If I were to make a grouse trip up north where I'd be carrying a gun all day, I'd just bring a different and more suitable gun. By considering a 12 gauge, it gives a more ready ammo selection and increases the likelihood that I'd shoot a drilling at informal clays with friends or in a round of skeet just for fun. I love 16 gauges but generally only shoot them at game and shoot 12 gauge or 20's at clays.

2. I'm going to save up a bit more before buying a drilling. The advice shared was to spend a little more on a nicer drilling and I'd be happier in the long run. Less expensive drillings on the market are likely to be either chambered in obsolete or less shootable calibers, or are going to be guns that have been abused or messed with and in need of repair- as in expensive repair.

I enjoy the thrill of the chase as much as, if not more than, having the prize in hand. The additional information I've picked up in this thread already has me perusing drilling listings more intelligently and I will to continue to enjoy my search until I'm ready to pull the trigger.

Jason

Jason,
" You pays your money and makes your choice". I have noticed one thing lately though. There seem to be post war drillings on the market at prices considerably lower than pre war ones. This is not because of any fault of post war guns, it comes from the same mind set that causes Lugers, single action Colts and toggle link Winchesters to be so high. Post war Suhl proofed guns are more likely to be chambered for 2 3/4" shells and 8x57IRS, 7x65R, 6.5x57R, 7x57R, or something else available in the US.
Mike

My first two drillings were 16 ga x 9.3x72R hammer ones. The first, a nicely engraved one, cost me $75 and the second, a plainer one, was $35. They were both good shooters and comfortable to carry. Uh, it was a while ago;-)

HalfaDouble,
I've been looking for a local closet find drilling for 25 years but none have surfaced. I'd jump on an old hammer drilling for $75! Even if you bought yours 40 years ago and you adjust for inflation, yours were a deal.

I would really handle a 12ga drilling before buying, they feel like 2x4's in my hands and they give you no advantage over a 16ga other than buying ammo. If your going through the trouble of buying a drilling, ordering a case or two of appropriate ammo is of little trouble, then you never have to worry about having ammo available.

I once had a Cape gun in 20 gauge and 9.3x72R. An unusual combination but a really sweet handling gun. On the other hand, I have a Pieper Cape in 12 gauge and 38-40 which is also unusual but kind of a brute.

Jason,
You can buy whatever you want, but it would be wise to listen to Oskar's advice and handle it first, maybe even shoot it some.
Mike

What Mike said. You've got to spend some time with it before buying. I think the best handling hammerless one I ever had was an underlever (not a Jones) 16 gauge over 8x57R (360) and really trim and slick. Kind of wish I'd kept that one.

HalfaDouble,
My own 8x57R/360 is a top lever hammerless and is even lighter and handier than my favorite which is an 8x57IRS( both 16 ga 2 3/4", but the smaller one was rechambered from 65mm and reproofed at Ulm in 1969). Drillings for 8x58R S&S, 8x57R/360, 8.15x46R, etc, were usually made on a smaller frame than used for the M88 and M93 base cartridges. There is really a noticeable difference between these and 12 ga's.
Mike

If your looking for a 12ga there is one forsale on 24 Hourcampfire, the seller is a pretty standup guy.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...l-90-drilling-fs-12ga-7x65r#Post16059125

Well Gents,
I've finally "pulled the trigger" on buying my first drilling. Now I just need to wait for it to arrive.

After much research and deliberation, I decided a post-war 16 gauge drilling chambered for modern shotshells and a commonly available rimmed rifle cartridge would suit me best. I also thought a rifle caliber in 7mm would be a good choice because I'm already setup to reload 7mm-08 and 7mm Rem Mag and have a supply of various bullets to work with. I should be able to reload 7x57R by getting a set of 7mm Mauser reloading dies and a rimmed shell holder. I also prefer a length of pull around 14 1/2" and for the quintessential drilling experience, I absolutely wanted a vintage name brand German scope in claw mounts.

I also looked at the various methods of actuating and cocking the rifle barrel, and thought the traditional top selector (which also actuates an iron sight in the rib) with the side Greener safety would be best. The various tang safeties and separate rifle cocking levers may be more ergonomic, but I really wanted to go with the traditional Greener safety- even if it means learning how to use it instinctively. I can switch between single and double trigger guns unconsciously, so learning a Greener safety can be accomplished.

So after that big lead in, what did I pick after scouring every place I could find for two months? I decided on something from Tobi and George of Save the Fine Guns. My first drilling will be a post-war J.P. Sauer & Sohn, 16 gauge 2 3/4" chambered, Imp/Mod chokes over 7x57R. It has a 6X42 Zeiss Diatal in claw mounts and a 14 1/2" LOP. Made in the early 1960's. This one checked all the boxes for me, so I ended my hunt and said I'd take it.

The gun is still in Germany with Tobi and it will be a couple months at least before I get it, hopefully in time for the end of pheasant season. After picking out this drilling, Tobi contacted me and we had a nice long conversation via internet call. Because I was a first time customer, Tobi wanted to make sure I knew how to properly care for the drilling. This was really quite a pleasant chat and I feel very comfortable with the process. Tobi said he personally inspects all the guns he lists and guarantees them. I hope the rest of the waiting and importation process goes as smoothly and that I have some pictures to post by late fall.

Thank you to all who shared their experience and gave me advice.

Jason,
I think you made a good, well reasoned, choice. I started using a 7x57R in 1971 and have never regretted the choice. You stated you can reload the 7x57R with standard 7x57 dies, but with the correct shell holder. That is how I always loaded for mine. As I was loading 30-40 Krag, at the time, I opened up the 30-40 shell holder with a Dremel tool and used it. The correct shell holder won't be hard to find now. I had the best results with bullets 160- 173 grains and fairly slow powder( 4831). Newer powders may be better than 4831. When I started, I had to sort Berdan primed cases from Boxer primed ones, but you will likely only encounter Boxer primed ones. The American primers and bullets are proper so you will have no problems. Also, you will find the 6x42 scope is excellent in low light, I have a 6x42 Hensoldt on my favorite drilling and have complete confidence in it. Good luck, I hope you take a deer with it this year.
Mike