doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com 1913 Sauer SxS, I have a few Qs please

Bought this gun and I have a few Qs I'm hoping you guys can help me with. Any info/opinions on any of the below would be a great help!

1)what is the oval hole in the stock in pic #1 below?
2) are the initials in the stock from factory or is that added by a previous owner do u think?
3) do u think it would ruin the gun if I had chambers bored to accept 2 3/4" shells? I don't mean in terms of would it be unsafe, I mean "ruining it" more in terms of taking a cool old gun and sporterizing it which to me kind of ruins a gun.
4) do u think I should leave the stock as is or refinish it? Rest of gun is pretty good (see last pic) but stock has a lot of small dents and dings.

Thx for any help and/or any opinions. Cheers! Mike

P.S. I added pics of all proof marks etc FYI/for reference











[img]https://i.postimg.cc/HnDFSFXh/A2-E9-BEBE-80-EF-4621-951-F-706581011-CB7.jpg[/img]

Oops looks like that last pic isn't showing up. Here it is.


Also I just remembered that there are no engravings on the end of the barrel and I wonder if that is normal for this era? I have a 1950s (gdr) sauer SxS 12 gauge and it has simple engravings at the end of the barrel. Thx!

The hole is where the initial oval was. Don’t know about initials carved in stock, gun looks great and original. I wouldn’t lengthen chambers or refinish the wood unless it was cracked. Very nice. Raimey will be along soon and read you it’s pedigree. Nice find. Excellent case colors.

Given the condition of this gun, to lengthen chambers would come close to vandalism. Shorter shells are at least as available as longer ones and just as effective.

Cool and thanks! By initial oval does that mean where the sling mount was originally and they moved it? Please forgive my ignorance if there is supposed to be something else there that should be obvious. I'm pretty new to these guns but learned a lot reading some previous threads which had links to serial #s list etc and that's how I figured out the age. Looks to me that it wasn't shot much but probably moved around over the years thus the little dings in the stock (guessing). Cheers!

I would never buy one of these fine old guns that has had the chambers lengthened, ever. It is unnecessary vandalism when correct ammo is available commercially from RST. Your gun appears to be in excellent original condition and simply should stay that way.
Dennis

Mike,
The oval in the stock had an oval piece of metal( Brass, Nickel Silver, Silver ?) let into it, that may have had initials engraved into it. The initials stamped into the stock are a little unusual, but may have been placed there by the workmen that did the stock work and checkering. The stock may be a special request. The 12 in a circle means it has 65mm( 2 5/8") chambers, the 13 is the diameter of the barrels( expressed in gauge measurement) ahead of the chamber. The left barrel is choked( as shown by the crown W), but amount of constriction is not shown. The crown S means the barrels were proofed for shot. The crown U, with an eagle over it means it underwent a View proof, after undergoing a definitive proof with the provisional proof charge. The view proof is a detailed inspection, including verification of dimensions. The Shul proof house started dating them in the early 1920s and this one doesn't show a date, so it was likely made before 1923; The type of proof marks indicate it was proofed after about 1911. The Large crown and "Wildman" stamps are not proof marks, rather they are JP Sauer and son house marks. Whether you have the chambers lengthened or not is entirely your choice. Some people shoot them "as is" with 2 3/4" shells, some people have long forcing cones reamed and use 2 3/4" shells, some people have the chambers lengthened, some people buy short shells. Most people have a strong opinion, one way or the other; but I'm not aware of any damage caused by any of them.
Mike

Thanks Dennis, much appreciated! I have to say that I do cringe when I see a cool old military rifle that has been sporterized. I just didn't know if lengthening the chambers falls into the same "sacrilege" category though Everybody has different opinions on sporterizing of course but I hate to do unreversable mods if it kind of ruins the gun.

Thx so much Mike for the detailed info! I'll have to look for a replacement for the little oval but I'm guessing it may be hard to find an original one?

I was thinking the same thing about initials being from workmen doing the checkering just due to the fact they are inset where the checkering comes together (I guess I envision when they get to the end point of checkering that might be where they put their initials, but honestly I have no idea on that). It a straight style stock (no pistol grip) fwiw.

I think I'll not touch the chambers as the 2 1/2" shells seem to be about the same price as 2 3/4" currently and I kinda hate to mess with the originality of the gun. What got me thinking about lengthening was this 2017 field and stream article fwiw/FYI:
https://www.fieldandstream.com/How-to-Restore-Vintage-Double/

Cheers and thx!

Great set of 3 Ringe tubes that wear a Sauer Quality Stamp & it would be sacrilege to alter them. As Ford said >>FA<< notes effort by a Suhl mechanic & I would say Adamy as I have seen many sets of >>FA<< initials on the flats but not on the wood as I recall. With the >>Nitro<< low on the flats it will date to towards the end of WWI up to 1923.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thx Raimey. We can safely cross modifying chambers off the list as I definitely won't do it thx to your input and the other helpful posts from others above, which I much appreciate.

Is the quality stamp the crown? Also re the initials I noticed that the end of the "A" (and a presumed period after it) are cut off by the checkering. Also the "J.S." Initials appear to be centered on the sling mount and not centered on the checkering. I wonder does this indicate the letters were stamped on the stock before checkering was done? Also I noticed the "AZ" mark/initial inside a circle/oval on the receiver. I wonder what that is? Thx!

AZ would have been the frame filer or actioner. I believe I have seen such several times.

Adolf Zehner
August Ziegler
August Zimmerman

Are a couple guesses.


Yes the Crown & probably a quality crown although it could be an accuracy crown.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

FYI it looks like I was wrong about the period after "A" being cut off by the checkering. I looked under the forend today and same initials are there and no period after the "A"

Mike, I don’t want to open a can of worms here but you can safely shoot 2 3/4” shells in your gun without any alterations. In fact, several American makers in that time frame cut their chambers short but recommended shooting the longer shells. They wanted the hull to open inside the forcing cone in front of the chamber feeling that provided a better gas seal upon firing. And chamber pressures do not increase significantly. Out of respect for the age of the gun you might only use ammunition listed with no more than 3 dram equivalent and no more than 1 1/8 oz shot though I prefer no more than 1 ounce. Enjoy your wonderful gun! Sauer made fantastic guns!

When I see an old gun like this my choice of shell size is more concerned with how the wood will stand up rather than the action getting loose.

Exactly how I look at it.

That's a great point about the wood. Never thought of that. The action feels like the gun was made yesterday and the action (as well as firing on snap caps) feels more refined than my post-war Sauer and simson SxS guns.

This brings up a question, is it better to store the gun with firing springs/pins released (fe snap caps in the chambers and fired both barrels) vs storing it cocked? I assume yes but I would think that many of these are stored cocked for umpteen years so maybe it's not an issue at all?

Just to put a finer point on it, what I mean to endorse when Rob says "shell size" is the amount of recoil being generated. A function mostly of shot load and speed to which that load is accelerated. Not pressure. It's just rather handy that typically the shells I buy of correct length and loading for the guns I use are also on the low pressure side of the equation.

Those pre war Sauers are pretty nice guns and you seem to have snagged a dandy. Good luck with it.

Thanks!

That makes sense to me about recoil and affect on the wood. I don't really notice recoil much at all unless shooting a lot of heavy loads for geese or slugs etc. I probably hold it technically incorrect but I put a lot of "push-pull" with arms, no matter the gun, pistol, rifle, whatever. I learned the hard way when I was just a kid how not to hold a 12 gauge ha ha. I have a friend to this day who only shoots 20 gauge cuz he hates 12 gauge recoil. He always lets his shoulder take all the brunt of the recoil. I tried to tell him hands, forearms, arms can be "shock absorbers" and not to hold it so gingerly. But u can lead a horse to water... not a big deal of course when shooting light loads.

It does make me wonder a bit if how a person holds it affects the amount of "shock" to the wood. But that's just an "academic" question though I think, cuz a person is going to hold it in whatever way works for the most hits for him/her.

I also wonder how much simple age of the wood is a factor. I had a pretty nice post war Suhl SxS that got damaged because UPS dropped it (it was incorrectly shipped as one piece, not broken down, and it wasn't in a hard case). Really nice stock was broken badly after that drop (see pic below) that broken stock got me wondering if wood was overly brittle or if it was due to just a really big drop (I'm pretty sure it was the latter) combined with not shipping it broken down/not in a hard case.

BTW, FYI UPS insurance is worthless unless UPS themselves do the packaging. I paid for insurance on the Suhl SxS but they wouldn't honor it. And In talking with a large classic gun dealer (not the dealer who shipped that suhl) they said UPS denies insurance claims 100% of the time. Only by long arduous protest can u ever get paid apparently and that is very rare from what they said. In my case UPS never honored the insurance (but the dealer who shipped it stood by it fortunately).

Quick answer to your question. Very little.

Shock is transmitted almost immediately from the receiver to the wood, and then to you.

Wood shrinks a bit as it ages. That can create gaps where the receiver meets the wood, reducing the load bearing surface and concentrating the recoil on an ever decreasing bit of wood. This is exacerbated by poor care over the decades, particularly the common “oil soaked” head of the stock. The oil further weakens the wood.

No one should ever ship a two piece gun fully assembled. ALWAYS break them down.

I’ve shipped lots of old guns. I pack them like they are valuable antiques. Which they are. I’ve never had a problem. Not saying I won’t but I sure take steps to make sure I don’t. Too many shippers of guns pack them badly.