doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com A Case Saga

This doesn't have to do with much of anything except a sort of quest and how that turned into history and a story.

When in 2015 I finally found my first SxS an EM Reilly hammer-gun SN 34723, later established as the last extant gun made at 16 New Oxford Street spring 1897, I looked for a case. Jan 2016 bought one from UK ebay, persuading the seller to ship it to USA. It was a little rough but perfect for the gun with an 16 New Oxford street outlier label that had the date 1886 and a Serial number 26584. (The seller said the case was found in a recycle center in Bridgport, Dorset).


(Note details of the label - the three kings at the top Spain, Portugal, Netherlands. I dated 26584 as made in 1884. The label has rue Scribe, which was discontinued in August 1885. The gun apparently wasn't sold until 1886 per the handwriting on the label; see the Reilly line for an explanation of Reilly manufacturing at this time).

Last Spring a UK gentleman (a true gentleman of the old-school aka "Papeman" on this board) wrote that he actually owned 26584. After a minimum of contemplation (and over his objections) I sent the case to him and asked him to distribute £100 to poor people out of work because of the virus in UK. Here is his gun with the case and he did send notice every time he gave away £20...The gun is located in North Hertfordshire.


That left me without a case for 34723. Then this case came up two weeks ago on ebay UK. I bought it and it just arrived. The label is for 277 Oxford Street address in a format used from summer 1885 to May/June 1897. I have a 16 bore side lever made in 1886 at 277 Oxford Street but with the right-side side-lever it's an awkward fit (and besides it's a pair) - but the 12 bore hammer gun (even though made at 16 New Oxford Street) fits perfectly (note the hollowed out area on the chamber end of the barrel slot, obviously jury-rigged for a doll's head which fits perfectly with the 16 bore whitworth barrel doll's head).



Ho hum so far...I don't want to "restore" the case, just have handle, straps and locks put back on and the oak rib on the bottom side of the top resolidified. The guns are old, the case is old, I'm sort oldish (according to Diggory) so why do plastic surgery? I'm talking to Kevin McCormack (close by) to see what he could do (he does leather, not wood).

But here is the interesting part. On the top of the case is in faint letters the name "I.M. Bonham-Carter."


I believe this is likely to be Air Commodore Ian Malcolm Bonham-Carter. He was born in 1882. The Reilly labels changed in 1897, when he was 15, but, the gun could have been bought for him or by his father and his name added later. Cases and labels are always fascinating...and I don't plan to change it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Bonham-Carter

All I can say is wow!

That was a fine gesture, Gene. I'm sure it gave you something that no amount of monetary compensation could have. Well done.

Stan

Good to see a gun re united with it`s case!

This Oak and Leather Leather case is very similar to yours but unfortunately the inside was trashed and what was not broken the Moth had removed all the Baize. So it was a full internal re fit plus new straps and handles and stabilizing all the joints.

As shown by that act, you are a fine gentleman Gene. A quality best displayed when no-one is looking. Good call on preserving the character of your latest case. Straps and handle will make a big difference.

I would be very happy if someone were to connect me with a trade label appropriate to 1869 date of manufacture.

A most gracious act, sir. May your tribe increase.

Great story Gene, thanks for sharing.

Great story!

JB, re a label for your case: per my records this is your gun which would date to about late-summer 1868:

15857 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 502 New Oxford Street, London. 12ga. Shotgun SxS. center-break, center-fire, U-L. Non-rebounding hammers. (JBLondon's gun)

2 rue Scribe, Paris opened in Feb 1868 and the 1867 Paris Universelle medals with Napoleon III's profit on them appeared at the top of he label. In addition, 315 Oxford Street had opened in August 1858 (the complete chart dating Reilly labels is on p.49 of the Reilly line):

In addition to having a database with more than 500 extant Reilly guns in it, I've also collected a database with more that 150 original labels dating from the 1830's-40's to 1912.

Here are examples of post Feb 1868 Reilly labels with scolloped corners - you'll note that some of them had both 315 Oxford Street and rue Scribe as branch addresses, some only one of the Branches. At this time guns made at 315 Oxford street would have had the identical label.


I always assumed the Reilly long gun cases used labels with scolloped corners but going through the database this is not true. Here are two from this time period without the scollops:


Well, here are the three EM three reproduction labels currently on the market - the second one is an absolute time-period match to your gun - you could add the scollops if you wanted.

. . . . . .Repro label Summer 1860 - Feb 1868. . . . . . .Repro label Feb 1868 - Nov 1881
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .(after Sep 1871 Battle of Sedan - fall of Napoleon III -
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .sometimes w/o the medals)


. . . Repro Label for 315 Oxford Street circa summer 1875 - Nov 1881 (possibly to Aug 1885)

Gene,

A nice gesture on your part. The case should be reunited with the original gun. Hope all goes well with your "new" case repair.

Ken

Cool history, Gene. I get the vintage look thing, but, invariably a job halfway done, be it on an old gun, case, car, motorcycle, bicycle, whatever (you get the point) looks halfway done. At least get the case suitable for occasional use, with the gun.

Best,
Ted

Now how does that old saying go? One good deed ..........

Argo44, very enjoyable read, thanks. Mr w martin

Another selfless, generous act by a member of this board. Great story, circumstance, and best of luck on your new case!

[quote=Argo44]
Well, here are the three EM three reproduction labels currently on the market - the second one is an absolute time-period match to your gun - you could add the scollops if you wanted.



Thanks for that, Argo. I'll look into acquiring that repro label.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

JB - I'd add the scollops. They were pretty much standard for 502 New Oxford Street long-guns from the time EM created the new label in about December 1847. The two examples of non-scolloped labels above were for pistols, though I have found them for a couple of long-guns as well. You'll have to figure out how to get a large radius punch. I'd also try to get a label in the Khaki color. I've seen labels in green but the Khaki seems standard.

Here are a few on the market - all black on white and therefore not authentic colors. Surely there's a way to tint the background white...quite possibly with tea.

This seller has a period correct Reilly repro which would match your 1868 Reilly gun date: It's a little expensive (4th page at the top)
https://www.cmrfirearms.com/cases-case-trade-labels-vintage-case-trade-labels-1896-1940-p-438.html

This one also
https://www.henrykrank.com/catalogsearch/result/?cat=0&q=Reilly

This one as well:
https://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/E-M-Reilly--NLR--TL182.html#SID=68

I'd just like to add a plug for scholarship.

It's so easy now to say about Reilly that this label was from this period; this gun is dated this year; etc. When I bought 34723 in Nov 2015 there was nothing on Reilly except bits and pieces of urban legend, often contradictory and often contentious. It took over 3,000 hours of research to rehabilitate Reilly and to recreate the history of the Company, date the guns and date the trade labels. It was fun; I enjoyed that sort of thing and was often in the middle of no-where with not a lot else to do.

However, the fact that 26584 in North Hertfordshire found its case in Virginia is directly related to that Reilly research. Donald Dallas recognized this. Others should do likewise for their favorite guns which have no records.

Case is finished as much as I want it to be...straps and handle on, Top stabilized (it was in crummy shape once the screws on the corner brass came out). (there is still a lot of torque on the lower rib of the top when it is open - I may add a ribbon to support the top when it is open).

But the lock is giving me problems. I have only the lower section, not the top half mortise. (That case sure looks like it was originally for a muzzle loader). The lock guy made a key but gave up on finding a top half mortise. From the looks of things, it shouldn't be that hard to make one out of brass. It's exactly the same size as the top of the lock itself....just need the Pilars. Opinions before I start looking for a machine shop?

Are you looking for the top piece in the above photo?

Yes Steve..I have the bottom lock...it functions perfectly and now have a key for it. But that top piece -.that size can't be found. I'd bet it were 1860's. So best to make it - it is sort of a mirror reflection of the lock body. I should resemble the one I posted at the bottom.

Interesting. My son has a school mate from that family and with that surname. Her cousin is the actress Helena Bonham-Carter.

If a Bonham-Carter family member has the gun and reaches out.....the saga starts anew. At least there's not a specific gun associated with the case.

Looking at the case...it looks like it originally was for an 1860's percussion muzzle loader. Look at that long extension past the action flats. Heck, look at the locks.


See examples below of 1860's percussion gun Reilly cases: :
SN 12920 - 1863

SN unknown (pre-1868 label)

SN 13599 - 1864)

==================================================================
Case locks as date markers?

Going through all the Reilly's in my database and looking at their cases (if they had one), I'm convinced this oak and leather case was originally for a muzzle loader and probably from the 1860's or early 1870's. Check out the locks on the 1860's oak and leather cases pictured above.

Zeroing in on the locks in the photos (always hazy), here are the "posts" that I'm missing for my lock. I can't tell if they are just straight posts, curved on the bottom or if there is some sort of hook in the post. The locksmith actually did research on Reilly to try to match the lock. Think I'll give him a call and a query. This should not be too hard to make.

All four of these oak and leather case locks appear identical to my lock and date from the 1860's:


The amazing thing about building a database of photos of your favorite guns...you always manage to leave things out...who would have thought to photograph the upper posts of an 1860's lock! Or that case locks could in and of themselves be date markers.

Examining the lock, there has to be a small hole at the base of the post for the lock bolt. The post must look something like this:
. . .____
. . .| \ . \
. . .| . \ . \
. . .| 0.\__\ .<===(bolt)
. . .| . .| . |
. . .| . .| . |
. . . \ . .| . |
. . . .\ _/__/