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Joined: Nov 2019
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In the US we seem to have an aversion to the idea of rebluing, refinishing the stock or otherwise restoring an old classic, whereas it’s no big deal in England. A 1920s gun that has gone grey with a beat up stock and or bad barrels can be re-stocked or refinished, barrels can be sleeved to the point that you can hardly tell and gun parts reblackened, and nobody calls the vintage police.

One thing you rarely see over there is a re-color case hardened action, probably because even lesser guns over there are much more finely engraved than our lower grade guns here.

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It is the lack of collecting culture over there that is the difference. Buyers are going to use a gun and will invest in regular maintenance or improvements. In the US there has been a group of buyers who are obsessed with owing as near to original mint condition as possible with no interest in shooting a gun because from their viewpoint wear destroys a guns value. I know of Browning and Winchester who will buy a gun based on high original condition but would never think of shooting it. In fact many never shoot at all anymore.

As to re-case coloring it has gotten a bad rap in some circles. Colors not true to original colors and the possibility of warping the frame are seen as reasons many here no longer want to re-case color guns. But I always thought a owner was free to do what ever he wanted with his gun.

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Originally Posted by Glacierjohn
In the US we seem to have an aversion to the idea of rebluing, refinishing the stock or otherwise restoring an old classic, whereas it’s no big deal in England. A 1920s gun that has gone grey with a beat up stock and or bad barrels can be re-stocked or refinished, barrels can be sleeved to the point that you can hardly tell and gun parts reblackened, and nobody calls the vintage police.

One thing you rarely see over there is a re-color case hardened action, probably because even lesser guns over there are much more finely engraved than our lower grade guns here.

The collecting in England is the same as here in the states. A high original gun will command a premium over a redone gun (look at Rocketman's spreadsheet). Guns that are restocked need to be done to same level as the original or the price takes a bigger hit. Sleeved guns, even though, still very serviceable will take a bigger hit than original barrels (there is still somewhat of a negative stigma with sleeved barrels even ones that are undetectable). Re-case hardening has to be done very well (to include potential pick-up of engraving) or it sticks out like a sore thumb (see this article Re-Case. There really isn't a lot of difference except of barrel bluing and a minor stock refinish.

Ken

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I will pose the same question I have so many times in the past. How many can tell that a gun has been perfectly redone and used for a dozen years or so, is not an original in high, but used, condition? I have seen guns that were in very high condition, claimed to be original, that I believe cannot be absolutely determined to be so. They could have been reblued, and the wood refinished, even had the action recased, used for some seasons afterward, and look like a slightly used but well cared for original.

The persons who can tell the difference are exceedingly rare, IMO.


May God bless America and those who defend her.
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wise collectors used to have "bench mark" guns, original examples that exhibit factory original finishes, not as when they left the factory, but now, as they exist, after many years of natural aging...

for example, the wood finish on a 100 year old gun is not going to look the same now, as it did 100 years ago...it will most likely be darker and perhaps have some crazing of the varnish...

thanks to modern color photography, we now have printed or digital images that take the place of the traditional benchmark gun...

also, perfectly redone guns are easy to spot...their very perfection is a big clue that they are not original...an old, original gun, should have some flaws... a ding here, a scratch there, a little case wear, all good indicators of originality...i jes luv to see crazed varnish...but like stan said, it gets difficult, when a well redone gun has some age to it...

there is no substitute for experience, guided by skepticism...

"if it looks too good to be true, it probably aint"...

Last edited by ed good; 03/15/21 10:49 PM.

keep it simple and keep it safe...
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Serious collecting implies some kind of classification and indexing. It is not simply amassing a number of objects.

Is it possible to classify and index bespoke items? I wonder

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That lead me to wonder what percentage of us are collector, shooters, hunters, all three. Personally I’m much more a hunter though I shoot sporting clays a few times a year to keep my skids up, and I own more than one shotgun so that makes me a bit of a collector. That said, every gun I buy, I buy with an eye toward hunting with it.

Regarding my “collection” I have three for sentimental reasons; my dad’s 1949 (year I was born) 16 ga Model twelve. That field grade gun with its pretty wood-straight stock is perfect upland gun if you don’t mind repeaters. I also have a very early Parker GH that was my father in law’s grandfather’s gun. It’s super heavy and had way too much drop at heel for me to shoot, finally I still have my first gun, a lowly Winchester Model 1200 I got in high school that fits me like a glove.

Beyond that I own a Sterlingworth pin gun, LC Smith 12ga featherweight, just bought a Parker VH, I have my Ruger Red Lable Sporting Clays since 1994 and that’s it.

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Here in the U.K. a gun in good original condition will always command a higher price than a similar one that has been restored. I think the thing is that most American made guns are machine factory made and to a collector one unused and in its original box will be the ultimate aim as each gun is more or less identical otherwise. In the U.K. each gun is a one off so one that has been restored back into good shootable condition is no big deal. Lagopus…..

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I'm not sure if the original post here is meant to be a comment or a complaint. But the fact remains that if you refinish a collectible gun, you will adversely affect the value, whether the gun is American or British. The same rule will also apply to most other collectibles, be they stamps, coins, automobiles, furniture, baseball cards, etc. That's just the way it is, because high original condition is a scarce and desired commodity.

I partially agree with Stan's comment, but we must consider that there is a huge difference between restoration and refinishing. With guns, there are few gunsmiths who can truly pull off a period correct restoration that is good enough to fool an astute collector. Those that do it well tend to specialize in one or two makes, because there is a lot of variation of finishing techniques between different manufacturers, and those techniques may have changed over time. The best thing they have going for them is that there are also relatively few really astute collectors who are educated enough to spot the clues that are virtually always there. A near perfect restoration will cost a lot of money because it takes a lot of skill and knowledge to pull off. But Stan was correct to observe that a decade or so of use and aging will make it tougher to immediately spot the restoration or refinishing work. On the other side of the coin, there are plenty of gun buyers who are easily fooled by a half decent restoration. And many are simply attracted by a new and shiny finish, no matter how bad or incorrect it is. The E Grade Lefever two barrel set that was recently shown here is a good example. It probably would have sold for more money if it had been in average un-refinished condition. But a bunch of guys still ran the price up far beyond what I ever expected, considering how incorrectly it was refinished, and how dishonestly it had been represented by the seller.

Glacierjohn, I saw that nice original Parker VH you just bought for the Buy-it-Now price. I don't think you would have been so quick to pull the trigger on that purchase if it was an obviously refinished gun, and I think that was a wise decision. Examples like that just are not that common, although a lot of VH Parkers were built. It would have been interesting to see how high it would have went if the auction went full course. You are now the current custodian, and it is up to you whether to keep it in prime original condition, or to alter it or wear it out. If you choose the latter course, you will help to increase the value of the ever smaller pool of unmolested Parkers.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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Lagopus does have it absolutely correct, a gun in superb original condition will command a much higher price than the same gun fully restored. Though there are levels of restoration and until recently most people restored to usable condition because over and above having the gun safe to shoot the law of diminishing returns comes into play. I would also like to say that action re colour case hardening can be fraught with problems enough to write a gun off if the action should crack also warping can be a big headache, to the point that it can be too big a risk for a vintage top maker offering plus the loss of all that cash. I also be leave that a gun is only original once and restoration can never take a gun to the time it came off the craft mans bench.
Now for my restored London offering in the first photograph its looks are good enough but it is far from a perfect restore because it was only restored to the point of shoot ability, and I do feel it is no worse for it. The gun was never intended to be a cased look at me only gun in fact quite the posit since it was made shootable in the 1960s that is all to the present day. If you look close the barrel browning is showing signs ware the hammers and trigger guard opening leaver where blued because when all the rust was removed they where bright silver it was either re blue or risk colour hardening. The thumb leaver had had a very old repair having a larger bottom anti slip ridge added by Brazing, the barrels where re browned because they where bright silver after the rust was removed and dents lifted.
In the second picture you can see the top action pin has had its slot re cut so it looks like the Grand Canyon, it was not replaced because the gun functions perfectly with it and it is original showing the guns history, also the pin holding both locks has had the same slot treatment. The last photograph shows the trigger guard strap with the finish complacently missing from use, it could be touched up but why bother the gun wont shoot any better and I will miss just the same as you can see by the slightly worn engraving.
The gun has been restored showing a little of its true age and I do hope the next owner will continue to let it grow old gracefully rather turning it into an over restored look at me sad version of the real thing.

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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


The only lessons in my life I truly did learn from where the ones I paid for!
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