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Joined: Jan 2006
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The topic here is 16th & 17th century Ottoman Turks, so please stifle the comments regarding the current offerings from Turkey wink

I've been working through all the documents on the website, replacing images and I hope improving the content.
I may be the only one, but find this very interesting
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1a96zUR-euesc1odcVR-j7iNCjjoOz7TU8P-AAWf4p0Y/edit

There was a rapid exchange of technology back-and-forth between Western to Eastern Europe and Russia, and on to Turkey, the Indian sub-continent and China.
"Between the fifteenth and seventeenth centuries, direct military conflicts, the employment of European military experts and, to a lesser degree, illegal trade in weaponry ensured relatively easy dissemination of up-to-date technologies and military know-how in the Sultan’s realms. Istanbul was more than a simple recipient of foreign technologies with its Turkish and Persian artisans and blacksmiths, Armenian and Greek miners and sappers, Turkish, Bosnian, Serbian, Hungarian, Italian, German, and later French, English and Dutch foundrymen and military engineers…Turkish, Arab and Persian blacksmiths added to their expertise of metallurgy techniques of the Islamic East..."

Shortly after the lock ‘a la Miquelet was invented in Spain about 1500, the Turks converted their matchlock Tüfenk (this one clearly with a Twist barrel) that the Janissary (fire-armed foot-soldiers) carried

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

to Miquelets

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

And shortly thereafter Turkey and India were producing pattern welded barrels; of many patterns.

There are lots of examples on the document, including this Miquelet with 4 Iron Crolle

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

After the 1683 defeat of Kara Mustafa Pasha by Jan III Sobieski at Vienna, damascus blades (some of which the Crusaders no doubt carried home earlier) and Miquelet locks and barrels were now widely available to the armorers of Europe. The "Winged Hussars" are in the background.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

A soldier front left is examining a damascus blade, and front right (the turban & green robe may signify a Jewish merchant) checking out a Miquelet.

By about 1700, pattern welded barrels were being produced in Liege & Portugal, and not long after in the rest of Europe and England!

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And all the support industries, extraction, raw materials, etc.

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Fascinating subject. It is so easy to think of early gunmaking as only involving the same few European countries.thanks for keeping our horizons broadened!

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Is it just me or does anyone else see another Austrian Military Miscreant mounted on the dark horse, extreme left at the front.


Hugh Lomas,
H.G.Lomas Gunmakers Inc.
920 876 3745
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Thank you. Great topic.

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This is the original which I had cropped. It is 441 sq. feet and fills a room at The Vatican. The detail is such that many of those depicted were likely real. I did a little searching but could not find a resource documenting who everyone was.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

This is the character Bro. Lomas noted. Wonder who the rotund red-head in the gold robe was, and what is he holding? Another guy in green is digging in the loot of the Turkish camp.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

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When you enlarge the picture the redhead in the gold robe appears to be holding something on the order of a set of nunchucks, a martial arts weapon, but with a longer chain. I have no idea that's what it is, but it sure looks like it. He's holding one of the handles in his right hand.


"With one foot in the grave ..........and one foot on the pedal, I was born a Rebel" T.P.
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The pell-mell charge by Jan Sobieski down that mountain side in 1683 is legend..he was Polish of course but a large contingent of his cavalry was Lithuanian.

The painting is rife with historical detail. The dark guy with the shield on his back looks to be holding a wolf's head regimental Turkish banner, recalling the days when they first swarmed into the historical theater of the near east about 1000 AD. etc. I visited Istanbul (driving over from Athens) in 1993. In the square in front of the palace, a Turkish Army unit garbed like Jannissaries came out with cymbals and those wolf head roman-like "eagles"....it made the skin crawl.

They kicked butt for 1000 years. Ruled India (see Babur Ziauddin's autobiography "The Baburnama," maybe the greatest ever written - founded the Mogul empire in India - and he was very clear that he imported both firearms technology but also tactics from his Ottoman brothers in Turkey - He won a major battle in India against a huge Rajput army by chaining oxcarts filled with sand linked together to form a make-shift wall and putting his matchlock guys firing down shunts between the carts "Ottoman style"); a Turkish Azerbaijani tribe took over Iran; The Ottomans got to Vienna twice! - and ruled an empire from Iran to Morocco up to Hungary.

The gold robed guy looks to be holding a mace with a chained ball on the end?

In the aftermath Prince Eugene (great name by the way) led Austrian armies south and took Hungary and finally Belgrade in a brilliant coup.

Edit: Actually now I'm wondering if that banner is a Janissary banner?
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 02/27/21 12:01 AM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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And since we're talking about Turk guns, why not this:

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

https://www.historyanswers.co.uk/me...cannon-the-bombard-that-built-an-empire/
Turkish super-canon (actually made by a Hungarian) which battered the triple walls of Constantinople on the May 29, 1453, the day the Roman Empire fell while Europe sat on its hands.

(Oh the Christian religious hatred of the period - the Roman emperor had converted to Catholicism - the Greek Orthodox inhabitants said, "Better the turban of a Turk, than the Mitre of a Pope." The Ottomans attacked the exact same spot of those walls, built by Theodor in the 400's AD, where they sink into a small valley giving plunging fire, that the 4th Crusade used to take over the city in 1205 (also a sack of the city by Catholics which led to a 70 year period of Catholic rule there).

I've been up on those walls and looked at it. History! and when Constantinople fell.Europe had a guilt trip..Moscow became in the Russian mind the third "Rome" of the Orthodox faith - Rome, Constantinople, Moscow.

Last edited by Argo44; 02/26/21 11:49 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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No empire gave less to its imperial subjects than the Ottomans. No great libraries, no institutions of learning, not even any noteworthy fortifications were built by Ottomans, which is strange for a military culture. Western arms makers made serious money selling arms to the Ottomans, including Winchester that sold them lever action rifles used in the 1877 Russo Turkish war, indicating the state of their domestic arms making capabilities.

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