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#592808 02/21/21 03:45 PM
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Boxlock
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Boxlock

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Hi,
What does one look for to recognize a Pre 1900 W W Greener SxS as a High grade firearm. Extensive engraving? Marks on the watertable? Patent number?
Regards
DblFixer

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If I look at mine, #30.600 from the late 1880s, I see fine, delicate floral engraving, sculptured fences, golden SAFE and Arrow; wood, while rather plain, is finely checkeded in a 'semi fancy' pattern, with a diamond instead of drop, and dark buffalo tip and buttplate, the later rather thick and checkeder in a diamond pattern. The present Mr Greener sent me an email years ago saying that this 16g double was three years in the making, being their highest grade at the time.

With kind regards,
Jani

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Some are marked as to grade on the trigger guard. Most are not. Start looking at photos of Greeners for sale on the internet and the features of the higher grades will be obvious.

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Royals are marked with a gold crown on the toplever, while Imperials have a crown and scepter.

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Hal Offline
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Here is my 1879. Have no idea about grade

[img]http://[IMG]https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/62799_600x400.jpg[/img][/img]

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For Hal

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by skeettx; 02/23/21 10:26 AM.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
USAF RET 1971-95
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In the DGJ article by Bill Wise telling about his son, Ben, winning the Vintage Cup hammer gun competition with his Greener Royal, nothing was said about the mentioned characteristics of a Royal. Ben's Greener was plain and unengraved and Graham Greener apparently identified it as a Royal. In emails to and from Graham Greener, inquiring about my eight gauge hammer gun unengraved and identical to Ben's gun, Mr. Greener identifies Ben's gun as a Royal and identified my gun as best grade, but unengraved. I left our conversation assuming that both Ben's gun and mine were Royals. Apparently, the build cards at Greener don't always identify a gun by grade. I don't know anything about the catalog listings for Royals, but would be interested in hearing about them. Neither Ben's gun or mine have grade markings on the trigger guard.

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I believe mine was made in 1878 and not a high grade on any level approaching Claudio's fabulous exhibition grade Greener. A good solid gun though. I should have shown it in the hammers thread.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Does the presence of sculpted fences indicate a grade range?
Thanks for the posts
DblFixer

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JB, Please go ahead and post those hammers on the hammer thread. They are beautifully done and well proportioned!


If we feed our faith our fears will starve, if we feed our fears our faith will starve.
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Originally Posted by Joe Wood
JB, Please go ahead and post those hammers on the hammer thread. They are beautifully done and well proportioned!
Ok, Joe. Will try this weekend to get sharper images of the hammers to post in your great thread.

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DblFixer,

Graham Greener's book on Greener guns ("The Greener Story") details the various Greener models and associated features. The book is readily available from places like amazon. The books includes many photos which is really helpful. I recommend the book

As others have posted, if you are lucky, the model designation is located to the rear of the trigger guard. But if there is nothing there, there are lots of other features the distinguish a higher grade Greener gun. One note of caution though is that there are lots of exceptions to the rule - e.g., the lack of engraving on otherwise high grade guns that Eightbore mentioned. At the top end, the presence of the gold engraved crown and scepter is a give-way. Hammerless high grade guns usually had arcaded or serpentine fences and came with a bolstered action. Extensive engraving, heavily figured wood, the presence of things like horn inserts at stock wrist, and intricate checkering are also indicators. But again, by themselves are not definitive. I have a Greener royal "G gun" that I can snap some pictures of and post over the weekend that may be helpful.

For a fee, Greener will check their ledgers and provide information on a gun if you provide the serial number. You can contact them thru their website.

Ken

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Originally Posted by DblFixer
Hi,
What does one look for to recognize a Pre 1900 W W Greener SxS as a High grade firearm. Extensive engraving? Marks on the watertable? Patent number?
Regards DblFixer


WW Greener guns were built to a defined grading system, and the best way to understand that is to buy Graham Greener's book. As stated above, many guns, but not all, will have that grade engraved on the trigger guard tang. The advantage here is that if you can identify the grade, you know where in the spectrum of grades it falls. I'm not sure where to define that with the respect to the term "high grade" but I guess somewhere starting at the upper end of the mid grades (which were already expensive guns), so starting at FH35 or 40. These grades, at least at one time, represented the price of the gun, so a 40 cost more than a 35. But real high grades start with the G-grade guns and above in my opinion, and I believe they started after the FH50. Lastly, like many gunmakers, the level of engraving decreased over time for a given grade (I have 3 FH35s and there's a noticeable change from the earliest to the latest (about a 25 year span, ending in 1914 for my 3.

Beyond that, I'd look for features like:

1. Engraving coverage (although there are exceptions)
2. Shaping of the action fences, especially scalloped or arcaded fences or additional beading, also any reinforcing bulsters under the receiver balls
3. Wood quality (grain)
4. Ebony inlays in wood behind action
5. Engraving on barrels (not the top rib, but the breach end of the barrels.)
6. Toe and heel plates for the butt

For the vintage you're talking about, a customer could order whatever they wanted, so the world is full of exceptions.

Lastly, while Greener made all types of guns from economy singles through heavy double rifles, remember that WW Greener marketed the facile princeps design (which looks like a rounded boxlock) as superior to the sidelock and Anson & Deeley boxlock, so high grade FP guns were among their highest quality offerings.

I love Greeners cause they're a little different. Not rare, but different, and consistently good quality.

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Boxlock

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Thanks for the info
regards
DblFixer

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I have a Anson deeley pat it's marked.200 ww greener very plain early 1878 but under the action plate is marked, brazier does anyone have information on brazier making guns for greener?

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Brazier was a lockmaker.

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mc Offline
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Brazier signed the greener under the triggerplate it is a really early Anson deeley boxlock.

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