doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Siemens-Martin DAMASCUS(?)

There is a gun that is a bit of a mystery to me.
The barrels are black, and the gun has the circular “Siemens-Martin Steel” stamps on the flats.

I’ve always associated Siemens-Martin with the change in steel-making process that ushered in the more widespread use of fluid steel in barrelmaking.

The gun in question has sales records (per the seller, but a reputable one) dating back to 1902. It only has Black Powder proofs.

It is described in the records is having “Siemens-Martin Chain Steel” barrels. This seems to allude to chain Damascus - but seems at odds with “Siemens Martin”. Barrels have also obviously been refinished/(re)blued at some point.

Did Siemens-Martin make, or market Damascus at any point? Or is this part of some elaborate coverup in mid-century America to make the barrels appear as fluid-steel as to facilitate easier resale?

In short, what the heck are these barrels?

Is the gun Belgian or British, and who was the maker?
I believe it would be reasonable to assume if it carries the S-M stamp (like the Francotte post) that it has S-M steel barrels.

For what it is worth, I have never read of an association between Siemens-Martin and damascus, nor of "Siemens-Martin Chain Steel"

Thanks Drew I figure if anyone had run into “Siemens-Martin “Chain Steel” it would be you.

With those who have seen the gun in person it’s about 50/50 split in opinions.

It would be helpful to know the make of your gun.

You put "DAMASCUS" in all caps in the title of this thread, but have not told us if you can actually see a Damascus pattern. I have a Grade 2 L.C. Smith that has reblued Damascus barrels. The seller told me it was fluid steel, and it sure looked like fluid steel. But after I took it home and fired it, I then noticed the Damascus pattern under close examination in bright sunlight.

Sometimes the pattern of the welds and layers of iron and steel will show in places where the reblue gets rubbed thin, such as from contact with the forend wood. Alternatively, you might rub a hidden area with fine steel wool and a mild acid such as vinegar to reveal the pattern of the Damascus. If the gun has been reblued, such testing isn't going to really hurt the value. But just do a small area, and don't slosh vinegar all over, because it will completely remove the blue If left on long enough. If this is a turn of the century cheaper Belgian import, then I wouldn't put much stock in the Siemens-Martin Chain Steel stamp. Some lower end Belgian makers were not unlike the Chinese today when it comes to producing cheap knock-offs with misleading stamps or names in order to convey higher quality.

Of course, some close up high resolution pics of the gun, barrels, and barrel flats would be a big help. Assumptions and wild guessing won't accomplish anything.

Francotte.

Records go back to 1902 and Model 18 from what the seller shared with me (though it didn’t say who they were from so I can’t verify their authenticity).
The gun is more highly engraved with scrolling than most model 14s but is a basic boxlock no side plates. Which I would think would be consistent with it being an 18.

There’s a weird silvery speckling to the barrels when you look at it in decent light, but it’s silver speckling not brownish or anything. I can’t discern any actual pattern at this point

I might try that with the vinegar under the forend or something.

Also the barrel flats are oddly matte looking, and under the forend too, the “texture” of the finish is just more matte/like the re-went-over it with something or other. Not sure how to explain but it struck me as odd.

Please send a full size high resolution close up image of the barrel flats and just forward of the flats by jpg attachment to drewhausemd@yahoo.com
Taking the pic outside in partial sunlight with a plain dark background works well.

Email sent

Images.
Fortunately the OP has a copy of the research letter from Bob Beach, which documents exactly what the gun is. The white vinegar experiment did not show evidence of a crolle pattern.
I believe the marks are certainly legit, and the gun has been the victim of a very bad blue job; I'm afraid with hot caustic salts.
Opinions are most welcome. The OP intends to have Dan Morgan take a look and possibly re-blue

The barrels sure do not appear to be Damascus to me. I have no idea why the records would refer to Siemans-Martin Chain Steel, unless perhaps it was known that the grade of steel used is one primarily intended for roller or lifting chains.

The speckles on the barrel are a mystery too. It almost looks like it was sprayed with acid, and then was wiped off quickly enough to not pit the barrels, but remained on the surface long enough to remove the blue. I cannot tell it the barrels have been hot blued either, but would not rule that out. At least it doesn't look like the stamps have been obliterated by a buffing wheel. I hope we get an update with more details after Dan Morgan examines them.