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ed good #590666 01/24/21 03:44 PM
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American Rifleman, April 8, 1915, Fred Adolph, “More About Gun Barrel Steel”
https://books.google.com/books?id=EpcwAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA25&lpg
“Krupp makes 200 kinds of steels”

How did Krupp convince buying customers they had a steel perfect for the intended application? By chemical and physical property analysis, and no doubt performance. Crude analysis had been available since the 1860s.

The Journal of the Iron and Steel Institute, Volume 31, Issue 2, 1881
“Application of Solid Steel to the Manufacture of Small Arms, Projectiles, and Ordnance”
https://books.google.com/books?id=BCJDAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA456&lpg

The Mechanical and Other Properties of Iron and Steel in Connection with Their Chemical Composition, 1891 includes analysis of small arms gun barrel (not cannon) steels
https://books.google.com/books?id=-c8xAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA30&dq

The numbers were obviously not as accurate as those derived by Optical Emission Spectroscopy (OES), and were an average of samples.
And OES today measures other components not measured in 1880; Silicon, Chromium, Nickel, Copper, Moybdenum, Columbium, Titanium, Aluminum, Tin, Tungsten, Vanadium & Cobalt

Pre-WWI Krupp Gun Barrel Fluss Stahl was reported as:
Carbon - .45%
Manganese - .7%
Phosphorus and Sulfur both < .035%
But obviously that may not apply to 1890s Fluss Stahl or post-WWII Fluss Stahl

With the 1933 National Industrial Recovery Act the American Iron and Steel Institute began publishing “Steel Products Manuals” with the “Steel Code Tables”. The Society of Automotive Engineers also published a “SAE Handbook” with a similar numbering system, and in the early 40s the tables became the SAE-AISI Code Designations.
The standards are reported in a range; this is the industrial standard for AISI 1020
Carbon - 0.17 - 0.23%
Manganese - 0.3 - .6%
Phosphorus < .04%
Sulfur < .05%

So if a paying customer specified .2% carbon gun steel, within the specified range is what they got. And the physical properties thereof would help confirm the quality thereof.

To argue that even at the turn-of-the-century the purchasers of steel products had no idea what they were buying (and didn't employ chemists and metallurgists to confirm) is just silly.

ed good #590679 01/24/21 05:21 PM
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Stevens 280 Krupp 1907

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

J. Stevens Catalog No. 53 1911

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

ed good #590685 01/24/21 06:15 PM
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[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
To argue that even at the turn-of-the-century the purchasers of steel products had no idea what they were buying (and didn't employ chemists and metallurgists to confirm) is just silly.


To suggest that anyone here made such an argument is even sillier. I would be interested in knowing what prompted this absurd statement???

However, there are examples of steel purchasers making poor decisions when purchasing steel. As we have discussed here in the past, the grade of steel used to fabricate the hull of the Titanic was not the best choice for side-swiping an iceberg in frigid salt-water.

Modern metallurgical testing equipment and methods are much more capable of confirming that testing a single sample of gun barrel steel will only tell you about the steel in that particular heat. Barrels with the same stamp that were produced a year earlier or later may be quite different. But fortunately, that variability has little bearing on the ability of a shotgun to handle standard loads.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

ed good #590687 01/24/21 06:26 PM
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More courtesy of Bro. Raimey
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=354793&page=3
"The only break in this Whitworth tradition was in 1898, when the steel workers went on strike. Between July and December of that year Purdey's had to go to Krupp for barrels and made eighty-three guns with their tubes."

ed good #590764 01/25/21 01:12 PM
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Another very knowledgeable Damascus and Fluid Steel shotgun barrel guy was PeteM, who constantly proved to us that "Copy and Paste" research is not really a bad thing... so long as you actually understand the subject:

Originally Posted by PeteM
I should have looked earlier....

Metallurgy: The Art of Extracting Metals from Their Ores, and Adapting Them to Various Purposes of Manufacture
By John Percy
Published by J. Murray, 1864

http://books.google.com/books?dq=krupp+carbon&pg=PA837&id=RYpBAAAAIAAJ#PPA837,M1
Quote
Uniformity in grain, to which I have above alluded, is not an invariable characteristic of Krupp's steel ; for not long ago I received from Mr. Lloyd, chief engineer of the Navy, part of a fractured marine shaft made of this steel, which was very much more largely crystalline towards the centre than elsewhere.

The following is an analysis by Mr. Abel, of the lioyal Arsenal, of a portion of a cast-steel gun made by Krupp :

Carbon, combined 1.18%
Silicon 0.33%
Sulphur none.
Phosphorus 0.02%
Manganese trace.
Cobalt and nickel 0.12%
Copper 0.30%
Iron, by difference 98.05%

Another analysis of Krupp steel used for railroad rails.
Engineering chemistry: a practical treatise for the use of analytical chemists, engineers, ironmasters, iron founders, students, and others
By H. Joshua Phillips
Published by C. Lockwood & son, 1891

http://books.google.com/books?id=UgBIAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA65&dq=krupp+carbon+silicon+Manganese#PPA65,M1

Side by side analysis of Krupp with other steels.
A naval encyclopædia: comprising a dictionary of nautical words and phrases; biographical notices, and records of naval officers; special articles of naval art and science
Published by L. R. Hamersly & co., 1880

http://books.google.com/books?id=IPvxNqDjeXYC&pg=PA387&dq=krupp+carbon+silicon+Manganese

Another side by side comparison
Proceedings - Institution of Mechanical Engineers
By Institution of Mechanical Engineers (Great Britain)., Institution of Mechanical Engineers (Great Britain)
Published by Published for the Institution by Mechanical Engineering Publications Ltd., 1902
Item notes: pt. 2

http://books.google.com/books?id=HXbNAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA838&dq=krupp+carbon+silicon+Manganese#PPA837,M1

Alfred Krupp: a Sketch of His Life and Work: After the German of Victor Niemeyer
By Kate Woodbridge Michaelis, Otho E. Michaelis, E. Monthaye
Published by T. Prosser, 1888

Krupp puddled steel plant
http://books.google.com/books?id=UKlCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA60&dq=krupp+puddling#PPA59,M1

The composition seems to change over time and possibly by intended use.

Pete


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

ed good #590785 01/25/21 04:38 PM
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It is most encouraging William that you now appear to comprehend that (crude) composition analysis was available even in the 1860s, suggesting that when the General Manager at Hunter Arms, or Ithaca, or Lefever in 1900 ordered from Belgium a rough forged tube of barrel steel with specific characteristics, that is what they received, rather than whatever happened to appear out of the pour.

Although I admire your perseverance, your ongoing attempts to delegitimize the results of the composition studies ignore the fact that I did my best to document the DOM of the barrels tested. And since tubes were received in batches, it would seem quite reasonable that tubes used over a period of time (or at least until the General Manager changed the specifications of the order) would be quite similar.
As stated, I did tensile test Bro. Potter's Krupp barrel segment, but did not composition test the sample not knowing the source or DOM.

My class in statistics at MU SOM as a MS1 was in 1974, and I get that a sample of one does not a statistically valid study make. We don't know everything; however I do believe we have learned something from the effort, both on my part and that of Dave Suponski's Parker barrel study. I'm particularly gratified that we now know the composition of Model 12 Nickel Steel and (1937) Winchester Proof Steel.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnRLZgcuHfx7uFOHvHCUGnGFiLiset-DTTEK8OtPYVA/edit

So please feel free to send me a chunk of whichever Lefever you wish to contribute to (junk) science wink

ed good #590827 01/25/21 09:53 PM
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That's amusing Preacher. And I have noticed that you only call me William when your panties are wedged way up your ass-crack, so you must be particularly incensed.

But that doesn't change your typical dishonesty. I'd like to put you on the spot here and challenge you to show us where I ever stated or even alluded to the notion that there was no chemical or compositional analysis of steel (or other metals) as early as the 1860's. This isn't the first time you have attempted to put words in my mouth. Are you really that pathetic and desperate to portray yourself as a shotgun barrel expert that you have to tell lies?

Of course, I shouldn't be surprised at that, considering your recent attempt to besmirch the reputation of a dead man, when you once again went off the rails with your total intentional misinterpretation of what Miller (2Piper) had stated about what the Bible told him, quite literally and verbatim, about slavery. I say it was intentional because he spelled it out to you at the time, but you have a problem admitting when you are wrong.

Neither have I attempted to delegitimize the results of any of your precious composition studies. I have merely pointed out that the metallurgical analysis of a single segment of old shotgun barrel only tells us something about that one particular barrel. Unless you can show that your sample is from the same heat as any other barrel or barrels, then your results have no significance and provide no valid information pertaining to the composition of another barrel or barrels. Your assumptions about the number of rough tubes ordered by the General Manager of Hunter Arms, Ithaca, or Lefever are meaningless speculation. It is hard enough to find out which Belgian Barrel makers supplied tubes to various American gun companies, let alone to know if those Belgian barrel makers utilized outworkers or sub-contractors who may have used barrel steel from different sources or different heats. In one of your links, Raimey noted that he is wary of believing the validity of any shotgun barrel stamp, and those Krupp tubes over-stamped with "Armor Steel" ought to confirm that suspicion. I'm sure that by now you are, or should be aware that tube sets normally came wired together in supposedly matched pairs. But in spite of that, we have documented cases of double guns with mixed barrels such as one fluid and one Damascus, or one Damascus and one Twist. So-called Lefever experts are still arguing about whether many guns with late 1890's and early 1900's serial numbers were assembled in Ithaca after the sale of the company in 1916. So why would I sacrifice a segment of one of my Lefever barrels for your junk science?

The situation is far different today in many industries, driven by regulations and litigation. When a gun barrel or under sea oil line ruptures, there are typically computerized tracking records that can trace the origin of that defective product right back to the mill, including the heat number, day, time, metallurgical analysis, and even the employees who produced and inspected it. But you can test old barrels to your heart's content. Maybe you can fool a few more people into believing that you are an expert. You've shown me otherwise. Don't forget my challenge in the second paragraph. You don't want folks to think you are a disingenuous fraud.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

ed good #590829 01/25/21 11:17 PM
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keith, try to stay on topic...please...


advocating doublegon happiness...via 90/30 guidelines...
ed good #590835 01/26/21 03:55 AM
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Ed, is the topic Dave Suponski's Parker barrel study???... or Model 12 Nickel Steel???... or 1937 Winchester Proof Steel??? Or perhaps the subject is the Preacher's penchant for falsehoods and putting words in other folk's mouth.

I'm not really expecting a truthful reply to my challenge. If past history is any indicator of future performance, we'll probably be treated to some scripture verses, nasty comments about acid eating my soul, or pictures of poor Guatemalan kids and dead dogs. But that's OK. I just don't want people thinking we should draw conclusions about shotgun barrel strength or compositions from woefully insufficient samples and testing. Or perhaps the Preacher would ask us to also accept a Covid19 vaccine if it had been tested for safety and efficacy on one monkey. Who knows, that just might work if he posted those results with a bunch of copy and paste vintage advertisements featuring doctors smoking Chesterfields and Lucky Strikes.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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