doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com NEED HELP - proof marks on a French 16x16 Cape Gun

Creusot was a famous forging town, possibly a refference to a hammer forged frame?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Creusot

Hello fab500,
Thanks for the reply.

I wish I understood French

Hello SKB,
Thanks for the reply.

Very interesting reference.

Hello Argo44,
Thanks for the reply.

Again, a Big Thank You for a most informative addition to solving the history puzzle of the Cape Gun's markings.

Hello Argo44

I just received this from a member on another forum.

Could you translate some of the text as it relates to our discussions here?

Thanks

Well, I'll have a go at this but you guys are really taxing my vocabulary. More new words. I'll be making a list to send to Dave so he can post them - since he locked the French dictionary line.

This is a rough translation - but it seems clear that the Raye "SUPRA" barrel was first intended to be a spreader shotgun barrel - and secondarily a rifled ball barrel. I would think this falls between a shotgun and a cape gun...a very interesting concept.

. . . . . . . . . . . . .For upland woods hunting.

New word:
"Le Chasse sous Bois" - upland hunting

For hunting rabbit (in the wild?) as well as Woodcock..

New word
�le d�boul�? in the wild?

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Use one of our
Double guns with right barrel �raye� �Supra.�

In order to succeed in various hunts where one must be generally ready to fire, it is necessary that the pattern of the lead shot does not have a tight group, but one which can cover (the target at a distance of about 15 meters), with the widest spreading grouping possible, while remaining regulated and sufficiently �supplied� (�fournie�) �(presumably meaning �get the biggest possible shot dispersion while retaining enough shot to kill something).

New words:
Gerbe � Pattern
Gerbe de Plombe - shot pattern
Fournie - not sure

Of all the previous methods tried to obtain a result, special boring of barrels or particular loading of cartridges, -- nothing has achieved the proposed goal, when, after some thirty years of deep studies and numerous attempts, we have acquired the certainty that the shallow striation of barrels has achieved the searched for solution.

New word:
Forage � boring (of barrels)

This led to the creation of our Rayes SUPRA barrels, with which one obtains, at distance reduced to 12-15 meters, a beautiful shot pattern some 80cm in diameter (figure 2) compared to the pattern from the same distance by a smoothbore barrel (�Canon Lisse�) made to shoot ball. (Fig. 1)

With an arm fitted (�Muni� � new word) with one of our Rayes SUPRA barrels and normally charged cartridges with Nr. 8 shot which are proven best for close-in shooting, the chances of shooting games at close range are doubled; and it poses no risk of tearing the game apart rendering it inedible as with an ordinary shotgun.

New word:
Muni - fitted

Finally and this is not the least interesting part of this perfection, our new Raye barrel permits one to fire a round conical ball or a ball �MF,� with precision sufficient for a distance of 50 to 100 meters.


New words:
Chasse (m) sous Bois - Upland woods hunting
D�boul� (m)? - in the wild?
Forage � boring (of barrels
Fournie - not sure
Gerbe � pattern
Gerbe de Plombe - shot pattern
Muni - fitted

Hello Argo44,
Thanks for the reply.

You have done a wonderful job of translating. Thank you so much.

I'm very pleased to have acquired a copy of this pamphlet that proves that the Factory intended the rifled barrel to be used with both shot and ball.

".... our new Raye barrel permits one to fire a round conical ball or a ball �MF,� with precision sufficient for a distance of 50 to 100 meters.

Interesting is the coincidence that I tested the shotshell pattern of the right barrel at 12 yards, and the pamphlet indicates 12-15 meters. Pretty close.
As I develop my "ball" loads, I'll stretch the testing to 50 - 100 yards to see how it performs. Nothing like rediscovering the 1930's.

BTW, I've had several PMs conversations with forum members here, and from other forums, telling me that this is a very, very, rare gun.

If you look at the 2nd page graybeardtmm3's post, Tom absolutely nailed it without lifting a finger. There are some real authorities on this board. Hopefully we've added some academic footnotes reinforcing his conclusions.

Hello Argo44,
Thanks for your reply.

Yes, graybeardtmm3's post DID nail it. He was SPOT-ON. It was his assement that led me to do the cast of the rifling - a picture of which is in my post that followed his.

For my part - I will continue to refer to this interesting Combination Gun, .... as a CAPE GUN.

Although "some" think there is not much interest in Cape Guns, I'll post details about the other four in my collection for those that do have interest.

My first Cape Gun.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=589330#Post589330

My second Cape Gun
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=589328#Post589328

My third Cape Gun
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=589325#Post589325

My forth Cape Gun
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=589323#Post589323

And as you know ... this post was about my fifth "Cape Gun".
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=587568#Post587568

.... and ... I'm bidding on a couple more in various up-coming auctions - wish me luck.

Mr. Buckstix: In reviewing this post after discussing a Bulgarian SxS Manufrance owner with a "raye" barrel, we need an update on your effort to expand you cape-gun collection. Thanks.

Also to help in dating Robusts from the other line above, what is the SN of your 32-ES? Thanks.