doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Combination Guns, useful!

A few years ago I bought a combo gun in 22magnum/20gauge. It is nothing special, but I found that with a 2x scope installed it would place Remington foster type slugs into a 6" circle at 70 yards and with that scope and the rifle zeroed, the shotgun patterns on too. The scoped rifle barrel and shotgun barrel w/slugs create a conundrum, but we here in PA can't hunt deer and small game at the same time anyway. I bought the gun for fall turkey and predater hunting and the rifle/scattergun work nicely for both. Yesterday I took the gun to attempt some 100yard groundhog shooting before I commit to the purchase of a 22mag rifle. The 2x scope helped only a little and after a miss at about 80 yards I started to notice doves coasting by to check out my orange cap. I counted one more close in bird then pulled the scope off and shot dove until days end. I really enjoy those straight on high over head shots, though I often have trouble finding the dead birds right off-I always look to far from where I was standing. Anyway, I really think combination guns can be useful at times. I am betting there are some here with better senarios than mine, but I thought I'd share this.

Thanks for the time,
Kurt

It's kinda like having an enduro type motorcycle-you have a dirt bike and a street bike.

The trouble is, it isn't a great dirt bike, or a great street bike.

Combo guns make a lot of sense when the 'gubament restricts one to a gun or two. Hasn't happened here yet, so they aren't all that popular.

Best,
Ted

Unless you own a Paradox and then you get the best of both.

I usually spend a couple of weeks a year in Montana, hunting upland birds and WT Deer. Seemed like if I was carrying a shotgun, I saw nice bucks, and if I had a rifle I was up to my Ankles in Pheasants. I bought a Baikal, 6.5 Swede x 12 Bore. Ugly thing but shoots well and serves a purpose. Doesnt bother me to let it stay in the Pickup around the ranch either......I dont shoot my Paradox much..

Now tha's a shame

From purely practical perspective 'Paradox' is 80-100m "rifle" and 20m "shotgun". Is that or . I did shoot the new one and they did do away with those stupid wishful thinking leaves to 300yrds. The folder is marked 150 if I remember correctly. There is one good advantage in that if you shoot SxS shotgun at birds already the lead required for ground target moving at same velocity does not seem to change.

The only use I have for a light and inexpensive .22/20ga is as an aircraft survival gun. I consider the drillings too heavy. The way I see it, choose feathers or game while hunting but not both; seeing the other is a bonus.

I can think of a few better things for use in taking North American big game, at any range over 175 yards, than a Paradox.
Best,
Ted

I don't think Holland ever had leaves beyond 150. Westley did have leaves out to 300 and are useful if using the proper projectile.

Ted, were Paradox thought for game over 175yds.?

JC

P.S.: I think "hunting" is getting closer than 175yds. to the game. JMHO.

For a number of hunting situations here in central Europe a combination gun is quite suitable, and as a matter of fact extremely popular.

Kind regards,
Jani

Brown, if you consider Drillings too heavy, you have a tremendous lack of experience with drillings.

I am constantly amazed at the drift these threads take! We went from discussions about the practicality of a combo gun (3-500 buck) range to the suggestion that a megabuck Paradox might be the way to go...Everyone who owns a Paradox hold up your hand! For that matter everyone who wants to own a Paradox hold up your hand! My comment about my not shooting mine much was TIC. Combo guns do have a use. Combo guns do not have to be expensive.

The new 'Paradox' is a waste of money. About the only thing it's really good for is as blind man's defense gun!
You are wise to find something handy in say 16x16/7x57R. A 20x20/.30-30Win would be a gem, but might be quite difficult to find. Not many made, and eveyone looking for dril wants one.
Main problem is the rifle tube which in old ones tends to be something odd like 8x, 9.?x72,.... Those are relics to be avoided. After all, what is use of having a drilling with rifle barrel for obsolete cartridge when there are numerous SxS smoothbores to choose from.

I will say that drillings and capes are niche guns. How useful they are depends upon where you live.
I have hunted for Sika in VA, and in the location that I hunt you can use rifle, slugs, or buckshot - but strictly OO.
Unless you reload, that is (unfortunately) a 12ga proposition.
That being said, shooting these 100# deer in the open or in the tall grass really can call for two different guns.
A cape or drilling with detachable optics is perfect.

My drilling in 7mm is accurate to any range that I feel confident to shoot, and after I cobble up some 16ga OO, it should fit the bill. Weighs in at 7 1/4# which is far from overweight.
I have hunted with capes and combos, but it is nice to have the extra shotgun round in the 3 barrel.

Cheers.

Pheasant opens tomorrow.

Tom

I thought the post was about comboguns being useful. I know of several Paradoxes and Exploras that were sold for not too much more than what I have seen an RBL advertized. If one were limited to 300 to 500 dollars, I don't know of any combo gun that would be truely useful for both fur and feather.

I just bought a boxlock side by side in .410 x .22. I'll post a photo or two when it arrives. I figure that if I don't use it much it will be there for the first grandchild.

I have no experience of hunting with one, Pete. I've handled a few in Europe and to me they're sort of a like a Swiss Army knife---something for everything. That's not my kind of hunting nor my kind of gun. Regards, King

JC,
It depends where, and what you are hunting. Big horn sheep, or pronghorn in the western US, 175 yds is often times a close shot.

Typically, people focused on sheep, deer, or antelope here in the US are not considering feathered game. That is a huge difference between here, and Europe. In my State, being in possesion of birdshot while legally deer hunting, is frowned upon by law enforcement.

It is not unusual to own a bolt rifle that is consistant out to 300 yards. Finding a shooter that good is a bit more troublesome, but, we are out there. I don't consider that level of shooting anything to brag about, either. My father spent years in the USMC Seventh Rifle Company teaching people to regularly connect with their target at ranges that surpass that by a good measure.

If I HAD to own a combination gun, I suppose I would. I suppose I would pass by longer shots that were really better done with the bolt gun I couldn't own, and I would sometimes regret not having another tighter choked barrel for bird hunting, since I was only allowed one gun, and it had to do it all.

But, I don't have to make that choice-I can own more than one.

I still view a combination gun the same way I view an Enduro bike-not quite the best of both worlds.

But, an Enduro, or, a combination gun, would be better than nothing.
Best,
Ted

Ted, totally agree, it depends.

Best,

JC

Growing up, I always thought one of the Stevens model 22-410 break open combo guns would have been the ne plus ultra for small game hunting. I finally bought one as an adult, but admit to not having used it much. This thread may cause me to go find out what it will do at the plate w/ 1/2oz. #6 shot at 30 yds. and on a target at 25 yards from the RF bbl. At the moment, I have not a clue of its actual performance capabilities. Now my curiosity is piqued.
A friend has a beater grade Savage 20ga x .222 Remington that is used as a ranch truck gun. I doubt it has fired a box of cartridges in either bbl in its life, but it has been used against the ocassional rattlesnake & coyote.

FWIW, the prices any of the older Savage/Stevens combos bring down here at the gun shows are way above what the BlueBook says. Today, I would look at one of the Russian made O/U's for a reasonably priced O/U combo rifle/shotgun. I do not imagine that the shotgun/rifle combo in several dif forms would have existed w/o some valid use for it .. ranch truck guns, camp guns, small game, mixed bags, boar hunting, all come to mind as potentially useful applications. I don't personally know of many refs to their being used for wing shooting, but they should not prove any more awkward than many an older shotgun ;-)
Using a broad brush, the American versions I am familiar with are heavy and stocked to be shot as a rifle while the European guns that I have seen are generally lighter and stocked to be more dynamic.

Paradox guns are neither fish nor fowl - can't serve two masters at the same time.
They are always lacking that something!

Regarding Holland and Westley rifled choke guns and your above referenced premise, you sir, are mistaken.

In reviewing this thread once again, and paying particular attention to PM"s (junior member) comments, I have to admit I got lost again. Equating a 22-410 Savage? or a 6.5 x12 Baikal to a Paradox costing only a "bit more than an RBL" is nuts. I bought a Baikal for 349.00 for the purpose stated. So far I have harvested a couple of WT deer, a platoon of prairie chickens, and a few coyotes with it. That in my mind, makes it useful for both "Fur and Feather". I think its still in the Ford pickup, but I aint sure. I dunno where my Paradox is....

Lost Dollar,
I refer back to the title of the post. If this post has a monetary amount on combo guns of 350 dollars or less, then I guess the discussion is limited to the Baikal.
I am a junior member and by pointing that out I suppose you are just trying to make a positive impression on me in the worst way.

I apologize, didnt really mean to do that! Trying to be a lil TIC, as in your use of the term "Sir". No offense intended.

Thats exactly why so few Paradox guns were made.
Not the best of both worlds here - for the man who could afford the best.
The gent who could shoot a gamegun driven, would stalk with a rifle. No such thing as pinching pennies with this kind.

Lowell,
I don't think the original purchaser bought a Paradox "instead of" but "in addition too." He certainly didn't need it England but found it quite useful when venturing into the wilds of the Empire. The gun was popular enough that every other maker came out with his own version or ultimatly copied it.

Like TW, I have one of the Savage combos -- a Stevens Model 22-410 which was the precurser to the Model 24. It is a great "barn gun" for general use around the farm. But I only use it when my Paradox is back in London having the sears hardened.