doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 20 ga. 1 oz. reload suggestions

So, my "new" quail gun is regulated for slow 1 oz. loads, at about 1100-1150 fps. Dean Harris determined this for me. I thought, no problem, I'll just reload them. Got plenty of everything already on hand. Or, so I thought.

Tried the recipes in Lyman handbook for 17 gr. 7625 and for 15.5 gr. Unique. Using a WAA20 wad for an old style WW compression formed hull, as called for, it won't work. No way to crimp with a full 1 oz. shot in there, too full. It appears I need a shorter wad. Any ideas or suggestions? Only hulls on hand are the old style WW compression formed.

Please, no recommendations for less than an ounce of shot, or m.v. above 1165 fps.

Thanks, SRH

What syle crimp? Roll or star? How much clearance from top of shot to hull's mouth? Gil

Pie crimp. Shot comes within 1/16" of top of uncrimped hull. Way too full.

There are two 1 oz. loads in this list of archived loads by the Old Curmudgeon of BP. Little quicker, but a drop in powder charge would slow it down. Chronographed loads typically aren't as fast when I've shot them.
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/load14_07_11.htm
In the BP Advantages manual I glanced at over 75 loads in 20 ga. 2.75" 1 oz. with a wide range of velocity and pressures. My experience with BP loads is that they will have at least one component not in your loading cabinet.

You have backed yourself into a corner with that target wad and hull combo....they were designed for a very narrow range of variables and maximum efficiency....

You could try to roll crimp it. Which could help with pressure and maybe back velocity down a bit for better patterns...although there is that pesky overshot card over small shot?

Surprised that was in the book.....did it spec a lot of wad pressure.

Card and fiber would make it fit but I don�t know if I would want to jam a full diameter card wad into the taper case.

Best,
Mark

You need the (yellow) WAA20F1 wad for 1 ounce loads in the compression formed AA 20-gauge case.

The Winchester Ball Powder loading guide says Win 209, 21.5 grains of 540, WAA20F1, 1 ounce of shot, goes 1165 fps.

I don't mind ordering other wads at all. Pressure was listed at 10,000+ on the Unique load, on the "high side". I can't remember with the 7625. I'd rather not use up my remaining 7625 on these anyway. I'd like to save it for my low pressure bismuth 12 ga. loads. Not enough room to roll crimp. I'm telling you, it's full.
I have other powders available, too. Would just kinda like to use up some of these old style AA hulls. I'd order a flat of factory shells but everybody is out of stock on them, and quail season is here.

Stan I use 23.0 grains of 571 which is about 1150 FPS. Chronographed out of my 28" REM 1100 LW 20. I don't know what the pressure is but 1 oz of 7 1/2 shot over a WW20 wad makes for a perfect fold crimp on older Winchester compression formed hulls. I have never used SR7625 so I can't compare. But if you would consider a different powder that works for me and makes very good patterns out of my old Remington. But hell I don't even know if you can even find 571 anymore. So that won't help if you don't have any....

Thanks, Dave. I've got 540 on hand, I think. Have to check and make sure.

SRH

Well, W572 appears to be a "better" replacement for 571. Didn't know that existed. May have to try some.

Use these wads
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/885123693

One bag to see

others to load quantity

https://www.shydasoutdoorcenter.com/shoo...20-ga-1-oz.html

Mike

Hodgdon Shotshell Data Manual #1 page 155
23.5 grains of HS-7
9.400 LUP

MORE

go here and fill in your gauge, hull and 1oz

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/shotgun

The Winchester guide ups the powder charge to 23 grains 540 to get the 1165 fps with the Remington SP20 wad. Slight increase in pressure to 10,000 LUP.

The RXP-20 wad is what you want Stan.

It works In the new or old style AA or the Remington hulls perfectly with an ounce.

Herco is my preferred, but there's a load published for the AA with 20/28 that could be shaved by a grain and a half and still have adequate pressure and likely be around the velocity you seek.

You have once again confirmed that many 'published' loads are impractical.

After reviewing what I have on hand it looks like if I can't use Unique or 7625 for these 1 oz. 20 ga. loads I'm out of luck. I've got Slo 1000, 2400, Longshot, 296, Red Dot, Unique and 7625 on hand. Maybe the Remington wads will work, or the BP ones.

I'm going to scour the stores round here for some Remington Heavy Dove game loads. They are 1 oz. at 1165. Just right if I can find some.

SRH

I like the Federal Game loads. - 1 ounce at 1165, when I can find them on sale.

Back in the day I used to load the WWAA20 hulls with 16.5gr 800x, the WWAA20F1 wad and 1oz of 8's for a great trap load in my 20ga and broke my first 25 straight at trap with that load.

Buy one box and pattern them. I have a couple guns that don�t like them.

Stan, my 16s and 12s are pretty happy with an ounce. Hit or miss with the 20s.

Best,
Ted

Hodgdon lists loads for Longshot and the SP-20.

If you can't find any SP-20s I have an old bag of them here if you want it.

I've used SP-20s too, and they work fine.

Hogdon presently lists six loads in their current on-line load data using 800X for your hulls that should both fit and function just fine. For the loads listed as producing 1200 fps, you can back it off a bit on the amount of powder or call them to verify that's okeh, if you wish; shouldn't be a problem when all else is kept the same as listed.

You'll see or hear where some folks complain about 800X's flowing characteristics, to which I say both 'bunk' and that they were likely using manually operated progressive presses and had every effort based on absolute speed. If you take a moment, or are using a single stage press like a MEC, the 'flow' issues will be zero.

I'll also mention that 1oz. loads in 20's are much like Ted says, when you go to pattern them, 'hit or miss'.

I've a friend who swears by Hogdon Longshot and there are 7 of the 9 loads listed that meet your criteria as published. He loads on a Spolar that is plenty quick and uses the Remington SP 20 wads w/o issue. Both he & his son took multiple limits of dove using those loads W/# 7.5's during this past season and seasons past. He son routinely uses the same loads in a Beretta gas gun for sporty clays & posts good scores w/them. I've no personal experience w/that powder or using his loads, but have witnessed many a dove bagged and clay broken w/them.

I still prefer shooting 7/8's oz. rounds of #6's in a 20 for dove, quail, cotton-tails & feral pigeons. #7.5~9 for clays & skeet. Don't shoot a 20 at trap, tho some do.

Of course, Joe Wood has seen me miss a flushing bird more than once, that had nothing to do w/payload or shot size whatsoever and can verify that fact. It was because he pointed out that the bead on the model 31's adjustable choke devise I was shooting that day was ever so slightly to the left! I'd been killing birds w/o thot for years prior w/that gun, never once even had a conscious awareness that the darn thing had a bead! Clever, these old guys w/hammer guns; don't get side tracked w/minutia, take the bbl. or bbl.'s to the bird & shoot it!

And I still like seeing what a few patterns look like on a grease plate, but that's just me.. and you and whole lot of other like minded individuals that like to shoot and have a keen interest in shotguns and their voodoo.

Pull!

'Take 'em!'

Very glad to see that you are back up to speed and not bored stupid. Find that load you are seeking.

FWIW, an old bud of mine, 96 now, took to cutting the cushion section out of some AA20 wads & turning them around, effectively making them 'shorter'and two-pieced when playing w/1 oz 20 ga loads. They were pressure tested by one of the major munitions makers at the time; those found safe/within SAMMI specs. got shot at clay targets, more for amusement than anything else. Neither of us was fond of 1 oz 20's, excepting for ducks decoyed in close. It was still lead shot days then and not that many guns were chambered for the 3" varieties that Francis Sell was such an advocate of. We took early season teal decoyed in close and some passing well outside the decoys w/1 oz of lead 6's w/o much difficulty using the better loads and a 20 ga. was a lot less burdensome taking into some of the playas we hunted back then.

Thanks everyone. It seems I've got more to work with than I thought.

I'm not crazy about 1 oz. loads in the 20, either. The 7/8 oz. has suited me just fine in a 20 for dove and quail for as long as I can remember, but I have a different situation now. The Sterlingworth Ejector I have will not regulate with 7/8 oz. loads, and regulates fine with 1 oz. loads at about 1150.

We'll just have to try some 1 oz. loads and pick the best patterning, if I am to keep the gun for quail. If I've learned anything about patterning, and regulation with different loadings, it's that you can't outthink it. You have to go to the plate and just try different loads.

Mr H. How many shells are you going to need for this quail season? I'll be happy to ship you some different 1oz. 8 factory loads I have around here.... I shoot 7/8 oz. loads almost exclusively, but have a pretty good mess of factory 1165fps 1 oz. stuff around here, hard and medium hard shot in various makes.
Let me know , taking a flat or so out of my pile isn't going to make much of a dent in my stash.

Paul, a flat would be more than ample. Let me look around here some this week to see what's available in a couple local hardware stores, that I've been told have a decent stock of ammo still. If I strike out I'll contact you about the details. I hesitate to accept such a generous offer, but will certainly front you the shell and shipping cost if we do this.

Thank you so much, SRH

Not to worry , simple matter to UPS a flat to GA.
AA, Remington possibly, and I know of several boxes of Win Super X "Heavy Field" 1 oz. 1165fps 8's down there....
Let me know.

I will. Thanks, my friend.

Your reloads with good shot like Lawrence or West Coast stand a better chance at the pattern plate than the commercially loaded 'heavy field load' stuff.

This is why the 1 oz. 20 gets a bad reputation. They run soft shot too fast and are shocked that it won't shoot tighter than IC.

Truth be known, that's adequate for most.

But... if you want an honest modified or full choke pattern from the 1 ounce 20, you're best served with a slow-ish load of hard shot.

But you know that.... and it plays right to your desired velocity/mass combo for regulation.

Longshot and either the RXP-20 or the SP-20 at 1100-something and you're probably where you want to be.

These should meet your needs. Available in #7 1/2 or #8. I would expect they have better quality shot that the promo loads.

https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Shotshell/AA/AAH207

https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Shotshell/AA/AAH208

Just have to find some!!

No question that the quality of shot is great with the AAs. Finding them right now is another matter. I'm going scour the local stores tomorrow. Supposed to rain, so we can't work in the field.

This ammo shortage won't last forever. Maybe I'll outlast it.

SRH

I've got most all of a flat of those 1 oz. 1165fps AA 8's sitting around here.... just let me know.

They do out preform the Super X and Remington Heavy Dove Loads If......your goal is TIGHTER patterns..... I have shot a few quail in my career, and I don't find myself handicapped by ordinary field loads containing shot that has tested 1.3% through 3% antimony. I use shells to fine tune tweak my perceived requirement , especially since I mostly shoot fixed chokes in the field.....Bobwhites are not that tough to bring down....

Completely agree, Paul. I found a few of the Remington Shur Shot Heavy Dove loads in my gun room. They're likely softer shot than the AAs. I'll run a few of them through both barrels on my grease plate, see how they look, and go from there.

I don't really need tight(er) patterns from this gun. It was M and F, but I sent it to Dean Harris and had him open them, and lengthen the chambers to 2 3/4. But, they've still got choke ...... .006" R and .016" L. Sure don't need any more tightening there for our quail here.

My one experience with Gambel's in AZ would have worked fine with those chokes. They run bad, and often flush further away.

Stan, out of curiosity, what difference did Dean find in pattern between 7/8 oz and 1 oz?

Stan, I�ve shot Remington Shur Shot 20 ga 1 Oz loads for years at quail. They are great quail loads imho. Sadly, with Remington now in bankruptcy and being sold off, I�m guessing there will be no more Shur Shots. Sadder yet, likely no more Remington STS.

Thanks, buzz. I'm hoping to find a few boxes scattered between four stores in two small towns within 25 miles of me today ........ one sportsman's store, two hardware stores and a W'mart. The Winchester equivalent is the Super - X Heavy Game load, XU20H8, at 1165 fps as well, and in Federal the Game Load, FRH20 7.5, at 1170.

SRH

Ditto for this load. For years that RXP20/Herco combo was my 1 oz load for birds.

Thanks, Skip and Shotgunjones. I'll be ordering some of those soon. I found five boxes of the Super X Heavy Game Load(s) today. My immediate needs are met. I can take some time to get what I need to load a bunch for future hunts.

SRH

Cheaper than dirt list them. I also see they have a Sporting Clay version but I am not a big fan of 1300+ fps shells. This obsession over hyper velocity just does not do much for me. Often the patterns are less than what I am after.

Stopped into a local gun shop this weekend and was surprised to find five bags of straight 7 Magnum shot. They said it came in with a lot that was supposed to be 7 1/2 shot. They even knocked two bucks a bag off for me. Brought it all home with me. I like seven shot for birds.

Hunted this afternoon from 3:00 to nearly dark with the Sterly 20 and some of the Win. Super X Heavy Game loads. First covey flushed a little wild and I took the first shot with the "new to me" gun at about 20 yards with the .006" barrel. I knew I was on the bird and it folded cleanly. Next shot was with the .016" barrel at nearly 30 yards, and dropped it too. When the dogs were retrieving the birds they brought in two birds from the first shot. My friend, who was behind me, said he saw the two birds drop on the first shot. I thought, "3 for 2 is a pretty good start".

The 1 oz. at 1165 fps shells worked well the rest of the afternoon. No cripples were lost. If I was on the bird it fell. I took a total of seven this afternoon. I think I'm gonna like the shells, and I know I like my "new" Sterly quail gun. Thanks, Bobby.

If I just had my old eyes back. Can't pick out a single bird in the gathering dusk as quickly as I used to.

SRH

"If I just had my old eyes back. Can't pick out a single bird in the gathering dusk as quickly as I used to."

You are not alone in that camp by any stretch. However, its beats not being here. On top of that, I can't hear them flush any longer, but do remember what it sounds like.

Glad that you had such a fun start. Perhaps give some thot to writing that down + a bit about the gun and inserting it in the hollow of the butt stock?

When I got the gun I took it straight to the grease plate and tried it with 7/8 oz. loads. It crossfired pretty bad. I tried a couple different brands. Same deal.

I called Dean and asked him if he could move the patterns that much (can't remember how many inches, but I'm guessing it was around 8 inches. I think I mentioned it in another thread. I'll try to find it.) He said send it and he'd try. He called me back after he'd shot the gun and said all it needed was slow 1 oz. loads, and regulated fine with them. So, he just opened the chokes and lengthened the chamber for me.

I'm happy.

I have 1500 or so of the coveted WAA20F1 wads that I'm willing to sell. They have be stored properly and ready for the next reloader.

Lance, thanks and check your private messages, please.

You might look for some Fiocchi 20 gauge shells. I see them a lot a Sporting Clays range in the trash cans of on the ground for free. You can load those with AA wads and Longshot at 1150, using Fiocchi primers. I like Longshot and have had good results. If you can find two loads they you can see which pattern well and go from there. I also expect there is a Federal 20 load out there to try.

I did some of this as well for 12 gauge, but it is easy to get powder migration above the sealing cup when loading wads meant for tapered hulls in straight-walled hulls, and Longshot is fairly small grained, so it does this pretty easily. The low pressures for these loads depend on a fair bit of blowby caused by the hull/wad mismatch. Shotgunworld's reloading forum sees this discussion over and over.

Prof, It does not really matter if a few bits of powder migrate as long as the shells are consistent in velocity and pressure. Some powders are better than others for migrating and the small ball or semi ball powders have always been know for migrating by the wad seal to some extent. It was a real problem with some .410 wads to the point that you had to increase the powder drop when using old empties. About 15 years ago I had several different hulls tested and found that after two reload I had to increase the powder drop by .7-1.2 grains to keep velocity up. It was caused by increased internal volume in the hull and greater powder migration with the orange PC wad being the worst, but still it gave the most consistent loads for velocity and pressure. After that I stopped worrying too about powder migration and decided velocity and pressures were more of a concern. Keep them as close to the same as possible and getting good patterns. I wondered at the time if the migrated powder did not still get fully burned up anyways and expect it mostly does. If the powder gets by the seal I expect a bit of fire does to burn the powder as well or as the wad exits the hull then the migrated powder should burn. So I load straight wall hulls with wads that may not prevent powder migration if they preform well in testing and patterning.

I loaded 5,000 Fiocchi 12 gauge hulls trimmed down to 67mm to shoot in both 2 1/2" and 2 3/4" guns. Loaded with Unique powder, load was 1 1/8 ounce, 1200 feet at 6400psi and a 1 1/16 ounce load which was slightly lower pressure. Loaded about 2,500 of each load. I had them tested, the loads that is, before I mass produced them on my Spolar loader. They were almost on the money, with extreme velocity variation of 35 fps in one and 16 in the other. Pressure varied more than velocity and the highest pressures did not relate to the highest velocity. The 1 1/16 is a really nice load that will even cycle a semi auto for my daughter in law, who shoots a Benelli SB3. In a SxS or pump it is a pleasure to shoot. I might just load only that load with 1 1/16 as it crimps nicely with out issues and seems to get the job done.

I no longer worry about what to shoot, if I want to shoot any 12 bore I have, from a 1860's Westley Richards hammer gun to modern gun. I just reach for a box of these Fiocchi and shoot without worry. They fit everything, are a safe moderate pressure and a decent velocity for any clay target. And I only load Fiocchis with these two low pressure loads, with common wads, a easily obtained powder and primers and used a standard crimp so no special loading issues. I have another 10,000 once fired hulls which I got for less than a penny each. When these 5,000 are shot up then I will load another 5,000. I even have 16 pounds of Unique I bought just before Alliant started increasing prices through the roof. Other than hunting loads in 12 gauge I am set for a year maybe in 12 gauge.

Turkey hunter-handloaders have reported bloopers caused by migrating powders with some wads made by BP. However these were most likely shells carried over from season to season in someone's pocket. I believe the wad, nomenclature escapes me, was a 20 ga. wad with two small openings in the gas seal the purpose of which was unknown to me. I avoided the wad. Gil

Jon,
I loaded 125 rounds with 1 3/16th oz of bismuth using Longshot in Cheddite hulls and WAA12R wads. About 1/5 turned out to be bloopers. When I cut down the remaining shells, I found that most or even all of the powder had migrated up into the compression section of the hull. Whether this happened while in my pockets or in reloading I don't know, but I suspect the latter. When the wad is seated a lot of air has to be expelled, obviously. I think that is when the powder gets blown up above the powder cup. In any event, I was warned of powder migration but chose to ignore that based on finding published recipes for these loads. Just did not work for me.

Cheddites are not my favorite empty, which is a shame because they are everywhere. When I am loading a new load that matters, and hunting loads really matter, I send a group out for testing. With powder migration you describe they will show up a extreme variation in velocity. The nice thing about Fiocchi hulls is that you can see what is going on inside them as mine are a semi clear plastic. With Cheddites and fine grain powders you either have to go with a wad designed for straight wall hulls, like some of the Federal type wads or buy the much more expensive Euro wads. I hate accumulating so many special, single use wads so am trying to go with common wads being used for multiple loads by changing powder use.

I expect your loads would have been fine with BlueDot, if you had any on hand, because it would not migrate as much. The Winchester ball and small flake types like American Select would be off my list. I know Claybuster makes some wads in a straight hull configuration as well as the normal tapered hull configuration, but do not know if they do it for the AAred wad you are loading. In fact I am sure they did not last time I checked. You could use the Remington RP12 which seemed to give a better gas seal than the AA12R did. I use to drop about a grain less powder with the Remington wads. I just checked the Hodgdon website and that still holds true. We use to have a lot of bloopers with Sr 4756, in extreme cold weather. Bloopers are disheartening when you are hunting because your chances are so limited in numbers, you want perfection. Plus the safety issue if you are shooting a semi automatic about the barrel being clear for the next shot. Sorry for your problems. It is food for thought.

Gil, I remember that issue well because I fired a blooper at a big gobbler with one. That was an unusual experience. The primer had enough power to lob the shot towards him, but it all landed before getting to him. He didn't know what had happened, but didn't hang around very long.

The issue wasn't a wad in this case; it was a gas seal sold by BPI that was placed over the powder and under the wad. For some reason, they put 2 holes in the "seal" that allowed quite a bit of the W296 to pass through it, leaving an air pocket to cause the blooper. I thought I was just unlucky, but I took the rest of the shells apart and nearly all of them would have misfired after being carried on just one hunting trip. The load works great if you fill the holes with fingernail polish or something similar.

Stan, I've had good results using Longshot in a 1 oz 20 gauge load, though it is a little faster than what you need. It sounds like you have solved your problem anyway. It's always amazing to me how very small changes in your shells can have such an effect on POI with a SxS. Try regulating a light field gun to shoot 1-5/8 oz turkey loads if you wanna have some fun. 😊