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Forums10
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 325 Likes: 4
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 325 Likes: 4 |
If the workmen on the factory floor at Kynoch's paid any attention to the drawings they were meant to go by, you ought to find a 1 in 12 bullet measuring .400 plus or minus a half thou wrapped in 3 thou paper. Or if they were loading grease groove metal based, .410 plus or minus half. But the buggers were English, after all, so you never know what you'll find.
The last 450/400 3 1/4" that came by here shot a 255 grain .400 bullet patched like that with 110 grains of OE 1 1/2F like that's what it was made for. But it is a Fraser. There's no telling what one of those contraptions the bodgers in London put together will do, is there? Ding ding ding, give that man a cigar. Mike Rowe is correct, the bullet is .400” and the two wraps of very old, fragile, crumbling paper is between.002”-.003”, hard to tell exactly. The lead is very soft, with a copper post in the snout (no screwing, sorry, Steve). The stuff underneath the bullet is fascinating. I’ve never seen or heard of anything like it. These are paper patched “Eley London 450/400” rounds.
NRA Life FOAC Life PA Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs Life PA Trappers Association Life
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 180 Likes: 18
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 180 Likes: 18 |
I stopped trying to reinvent the wheel quite some time ago.
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 325 Likes: 4
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 325 Likes: 4 |
I stopped trying to reinvent the wheel quite some time ago. Mike, can you direct me to a bullet mold or bullet manufacturer that makes this bullet? I could not find anything on the market now. Not at Hawk, Buffalo Arms, Barnes, Accurate Molds, etc. What’s intriguing is a .400” 230-grain bullet today is not even an afterthought on the market. At least so far as I can find. I’ll probably have Tom at Accurate Molds make the new mold, unless someone can point me in a faster direction. Bulletectomy results: •228.8 grain soft lead bullet @ .400” diameter with copper plug in nose •106.5 grains of really nice looking black powder, like new, and enough rough corrosion on the case wall to account for the other 3.5 grains. More on the powder later •Paper patch is deteriorated and lighter than air and crumbling, so it is tough to mic. Best I could assess, each side of double wrap is .003”. Might be a little less or a little more. •Top wad mics at .085” and appears to be millboard saturated with oil or grease •Bottom wad looks like cardboard, mics at .030” and is waxed on both sides, presumably to prevent grease from migrating to the powder. Both wads were in the case super tight. I’ll do another post on the powder, which I compared to Swiss 2F and Olde Eynsford 1.5FG side by side. Fascinating to see.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 180 Likes: 18
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 180 Likes: 18 |
The copper plug is actually a very thin copper tube, fixed in place during the final swaging operation. I have dimensions on them, too. Tom should be able to make a mold - I used to, but I'm retired now. The 255 grain bullet is the same, but with no hollow and plug. You can fill the hollow with wax, it'll do the same thing.
Have you read "The Modern Sportsman's Gun and Rifle Vol.2" by J.H. Walsh 1883? If not, you need to.
The only guy making correct Express bullets (only for the .450) is Jim Poynor in Virginia. Very deadly with a lung shot on deer, that's for sure.
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 325 Likes: 4
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 325 Likes: 4 |
The copper plug is actually a very thin copper tube, fixed in place during the final swaging operation. I have dimensions on them, too. Tom should be able to make a mold - I used to, but I'm retired now. The 255 grain bullet is the same, but with no hollow and plug. You can fill the hollow with wax, it'll do the same thing.
Have you read "The Modern Sportsman's Gun and Rifle Vol.2" by J.H. Walsh 1883? If not, you need to.
The only guy making correct Express bullets (only for the .450) is Jim Poynor in Virginia. Very deadly with a lung shot on deer, that's for sure. Mike, Walsh is one of those books I have read discrete parts of, and not the whole thing, not even half of it. He was opinionated, occasionally wrong, and never in doubt, from what I read of his own words. I do agree with you that his book is a must-have for the people shooting these old British double and single BPE rifles. Someone riffed the flat-nose .450 BPE PP mould I had Tom make me, and now there is a historically accurate (pointed) 350-grain PP bullet design for the .450 BPE at Accurate Molds. After fruitlessly searching everywhere for a 220-230 grain .400" mold, I concluded Accurate is going to have make one for me. If this round was as common as Helsley says, you would think the molds or bullets would be out there, even listed in the old catalogues, which they are not (that I can see). Then again, he is the Originator of The Helsley Principle , so I am automatically condemned to having to go through all kinds of gyrations to get this gun to shoot. Thanks for your advice, Mike, hope you enjoy retirement. Sorry that you are not working, and it is nice you are still lurking about these forums, chipping in whenever.
NRA Life FOAC Life PA Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs Life PA Trappers Association Life
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 531 Likes: 18
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 531 Likes: 18 |
A possible starting point. www.brooksmoulds.com
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 531 Likes: 18
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 531 Likes: 18 |
What was the bullet diameter with the paper patch?
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 180 Likes: 18
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 180 Likes: 18 |
Walsh wrote that book when black powder was the only propellant available, and the Express rifles were at their zenith. It's a tome to which it is worth paying attention.
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,463 Likes: 212
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,463 Likes: 212 |
I might have missed it, but if you want a round nose bullet, I don't believe Accurate can do that for you. Accurate though, can cut two different cavities for a very modest premium if you feel the need to do some experimenting. I'd second the thought that Brooks would not be a bad place to get a really good mold. Good luck with it.
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,715 Likes: 415
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,715 Likes: 415 |
I will second Steve and Gayle Brooks for moulds. They are great people, and I have quite a few custom paper patch moulds made for me by them. The most recent about two weeks ago.
You will want to know exactly what paper you are going to use before you draw up your mould design and it helps to know about what alloy mix you will be casting with so he can hit the diameter(s) you want.
If you are going to shoot in a fouled barrel vs. wiping between shots, then you will probably want to adjust your diameters as well. Having just returned home from a 4-day match I haven't read this thread in detail but I'd be very interested in the diameters of the bullet with the paper on it particularly at the top of the patch and at the base of the bullet.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
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