doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com W. Foerster Double Rifle in 9.5x47R

Hi everyone,

I'm a new member to this group as of today and this is my first contribution. I've kept a small but growing collection of German and Austrian hunting guns for some time but nothing until now that I thought was noteworthy for discussion. I recently purchased the subect rifle in an unlikely place and the more research I do, the more I'm becomming convinced that it was made for and owned by the Crown Prince Rudolf - heir apparent to the imperial thrown of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. A couple of curious observations include the lack of side clips, "SAFE" instead of "SICHER," the complicated inlaid horn "drop points" in the stock, and the unusual 9.5x47R target chambering. The bottom rib looks to be marked with both "6.83" and "7.48," presumably the dates of manufacture and re-proofing. Any insight or individual conclusions would be very much welcomed.
Thanks,
Ian

Passed thru the Zella-Mehlis proof facility so the top number, maybe June 1903, is the date ,& the 700 number is the ledger number for the month. Being that high on the tubeset, it should date between 1900 & 1912.

Cheers,

Rainey
rse

Unique mid-centre Sears.

Cheers,

Rainey
rse

Mr. Raimey,

You've no doubt taught this lesson to a few people before me, but I need to ask you what you see that points to the Zella-Mehlis proofing as I don't see a "Z-M" mark?

Also, please excuse my ignorance, but what are mid-center sears (the term doesn't seem to be readily recognized via my literal internet searches)?

When I have the rifle in hand, I'll take better photos of the dates on the rib to confirm a 6.83 or 6.03 as you suspect since this would greatly influence my theory of princely provenance.

Best,
Ian

That is certainly a royal crown, indicating some archduke, prince or other royalty.
Prince Rudolf of Austria however died in 1889.

fuhrmann

The position of the date & ledger number is undoubtedly that of Z-M. There is another set of proof marks lower on the flats, along with multiple preliminary stamps higher on the tubes(Klett or Kelber-jagged encircled K??), that have been worked off or are washing out by odd light reflection which could point to an earlier pass? Just the >>mm<< touchmarks alone date it to circa 1911. To be more in-line w/ the >>mm<< stamps, the date code might be 1909? Just need better images of the marks along the lower rib.

Ah, I use the Old English spelling of sears:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=270357&page=all
Ke�ler, O. Geyger, H. Schepring.....

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Too, the screws in the water-table above point to some assisted open or novel addition to the platform.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Upon closer inspection, I'd hazard a guess that the Z-M date is 6.09 and the ledger number is 749 for June.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Fantastic information, Raimey! Thank you for taking the time to explain all of this as it's all fascinating to me and I'm starting up the steep part my my personal learning curve with all of this. I'm looking forward to providing detailed photos of the worn/earlier marks as well as the date and ledger number. Assuming your 1909 date is true, the hunt is on to find a Prince or Archduke of that time with a first initial "R."

Best,
Ian

Perhaps Archduke Rainer Ferdinand of Austria who lived till January 1913?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduke_Rainer_Ferdinand_of_Austria

Now that 1909 date pairs with the >>mm<< stamps and had the longarm been subject to the new 1911 Z-M Rules(not law)(1912-Suhl) then there would have been a chamber length associated. It could have been a little earlier but I just do not think it would date to the late 1880s.

I still cannot put my hands on references for the novel rear frame centre pivot point for the scears for the A&D Body Action platform. There is some advantage to it. I do know it has been discussed on at least 1 thread. But all the German makers less say H.A. Lindner waited until the patent protection period for the A&D Body Action(lower scears) to expire then they adopted the A&D Body Action and the Kerner-Anson followed & became a Suhl staple.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Admitting that I haven't seen all of them, I don't think I have ever a proof house date and ledger number on a rib, rather than a barrel. I have seen several bore diameters marked in mm with out case length on Suhl proofed guns( mostly Sauer made, maybe happenstance).
Mike

Between say 1903(empirically derived)& 1912(Rules change date) most of Z-M's doubles had their proof date & ledger number on the lower rib.

Cheers,

Rainey
rse

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb...true#Post200806

Here's another W. Foerster that has those 2 water-table screws.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Besides W. F�rster, the following would have peddled similar examples & it seems that they may have ordered a gesteck or parts kit from their Belgian counterparts(like DUCO) and have it completed in Zella - Mehlis or less often Suhl. They made more money this way.

F.W. Vandrey

O. Geyger

J.J. Reeb

Ludwig Schiwy

I may have missed a couple so I'll check further.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Fuhrmann - I think so too. The Archducal Coronet is similar to the Prince's Hat but there are subtle differences. Looking at an enlarged version of the image on this gun sure looks like the Prince's Hat to me.

I would agree to "F�rstenkrone" or "F�rstenhut":



...and there were a lot in Europe at that time....

Cheers,
Wolfgang

Wolfgang - I assumed there were many as well. But it seems this Prince's Hat is specific to the Austro-Hungarian Empire and only certain lands within.



The detail that narrows the possibilities further yet is the "R" initial, of course. In fact, I can't find a possibility during 1909.

Some resurrected info on ole Wilhelm F�rster:

>>W. Foerster was a master gunsmith and a supplier to the Royal Court of Carl(1801-1883) von Preussen from 50 Tauben Strasse 50, Ecke Der Kanonier Strasse, or what I think to mean as also being at/near the corner of Cannon Street. Carl von Preussen was the 3rd son of King Friedrich William III of Prussian. Carl had 5 sisters one of them being Charlotte of Prussia, who had a very close relationship with Carl von Preussen demonstrated by her caring for Carl even after she was wed to Tsar Nicholas I of Russian. Carl von Preussen attended her coronation to the title of Tsarina Alexandra Feodorovna. Carl von Preussen visited Russian several times and this is the social network/connection that allowed W. Foerster to be a firearms merchant/supplier to kings and Tsars. Firearms merchants with a royal appointment or being interconnected to the court seems to really elevate the status of the maker/supplier in the eyes of many & the firearms merchant touts that thru advertising. W. Foerster seems to have had such a following in Russia. But W. Foerster hit the jackpot with his royal warrant/supplier to the Royal Court of Carl von Preussen as Carl took the military route for his ascension and by 1824 he had the rank of Major-General which was a stepping stone for head of artillery by the 1850s. Carl looks to have had a great interest in hunting and passed the passion by purchasing the Glienicke hunting lodge for his son Prince Friedrich Karl, which was yet another source for W. Foerster to supply.<<

>>Finally, after searching & searching I finally stumbled across a late 1872 advert of W. Foerster touting his dubbed title of HofB�chsenmacher. So by 1871, or very early 1872, W. Foerster received his Royal Warrant while at Berlin Taubenstra�e 45.<<


https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=206187&page=all


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Totally off the subject with the only connection being that of being a firearms merchant in Berlin, but
B�chsenmacher Paul & Anggelika Kleszczewski/Kleszewski of Berlin advertised as having a factory when in reality all Paul had was 2 foot powered lathes in the small basement(7m X 27m) of their home. The Verband Deutscher B�chsenmacher took his license for unfair advertising by allowed Paul's wife to continue. Too, Paul was a Hungarian in Berlin that survived for quite some time. A good read on Dietrich's website where the most astute custodian Larry Schuknecht maintains quite a depth of German info on the website.



http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/archives/kleszczewski-a-berlin/

Raimey - good information on W. Foerster. Does the stated business term of 1801-1883 influence our 1909 best estimate date of manufacture for this example? Or could the situation be similar to that of Mr. and Mrs. Kleszczewski/Kleszewski where a relative continues the trade under Foerster's name?

No, it should not change anything. As long as there was a B�chsenmacher on staff & registered with the Verband Deutscher B�chsenmacher, just like any professional today, the business could & would continue whether it be a wife, son, nephew, son-in-law, etc. But info on Wilhelm F�rster has been so elusive for the number and rank of his clients. Wilhelm F�rster evidently had several royal appointments.

Cheers,


Raimey

rse

Ian:

I may have confused you with the dates of fella Carl. Hof-B�chsenmacher des Kaisers und K�nigs Wilhelm F�rster hung out his gunmaking shingle in 1861 and in a short 10 years in 1871(or so) he had a Royal Appointment. Was a Mauser outlet post 1884. In 1911, he celebrated 50 years of business and by 1925 B�chsemacher Paul Schmidt took the reins.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey - understood and thanks for that clarification.

Straight grip stock another tip of the hat to English styling on this one.





Best,
Ian

That Anson Pushrod forend, the word >>safe<< on the top tang and the general shape of the frame bolsters just may point to an origin in Li�ge? Although I haven't seen the touchmarks on the underside of the tubes near the lower rib.

Is there crosshatching on the muzzle or a menacing muzzle?

Now the straight hand stock looks to have quite a bit of drop?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I'll photograph the muzzles when it arrives on Monday. In addition to the healthy amount of drop, the LOP was listed as 13.5." Assuming it was measured correctly and that the stock wasn't shortened sometime in the last 110 years, it seems like the original client could have been on the shorter side. 9.5x47R would have been a relatively mild black powder cartridge for driven boar further supporting the theory of a smaller statured original owner.

Ian:

If that ruler is in Inches, that is an odd tube length for German rifled tubes @ 24 1/2" which would be 62+ cm? Or is the image just showing the drop?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey - No, that image was, in fact, attempting to depict the tube length. The odd part is that it is a length that isn't a whole integer of cm, right?



Ian

Correct. I measured a couple of sets & they are integer cm like say 65cm and of course it could well vary with calibre but should be integer cm. So, in my mind what this does is again point to say a gesteck or parts kit that was in English units? Belgian maybe, which could have easily rolled their tubes to integer English units of length. Too, I have read that Wilhem F�rster did source the Brits but that is unsubstantiated for now.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Common German barrel lengths for "kipplaufs" include 60, 62.5, 65 cm, and others. Some are even shorter, to save weight.
Mike

Thanks Ford. So it could have been 62.5cm then.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

This would be a possible candidate...

https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Rupprecht,_Crown_Prince_of_Bavaria

Cheers,
Wolfgang

...but I think, the crown is not right...!?

Wolfgang

Checked a few W. Foerster rifle barrel lengths on the Web & there was 60cm, 26 1/2", 21 3/4"(I assume they couldn't measure & the value was 55cm?)

So his wares spanned the gambit regarding English or Metric units.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Rifle just arrived and here is the first close-up picture of the date and ledger numbers on the barrels.

Raimey - the muzzles are smooth and not checkered.

Close-up of the other barrel marks

And it looks like there is/was a different number on the barrel flats. I'll try to clean the surface corrosion off to get a better read on it.

https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Bekanntmachung,_betreffend_die_Ausf%C3%BChrung_des_Gesetzes_%C3%BCber_die_Pr%C3%BCfung_der_L%C3%A4ufe_und_Verschl%C3%BCsse_der_Handfeuerwaffen

91/83(9,40mm) plug gauge which would pair w/ that 1903 Z-M date then mm stamps may be from a proof effort @ Suhl prior to 1912.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Could you pleasure us w/ an image of the right flat which has the Crown over U and mm stamp offset from centre for some reason?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Just to follow up on this, I actually measured 62cm exactly rather than the 24.5 inches the seller depicted.

Absolutely.



Doesn't appear to have seen many shots.

Excellent rifling.




Are there any pre-1911 plug gauge stamps on the right flat?

On the tubes is a Kelber or Klett >>K<< along with a misstamped >>KS<< closer to the flats above the letter >>8<<.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Let's make that prior to 1922 to be correct. I assume that in 1903 in Z-M the mm mark would not be applied and that if it passed again thru the Z-M proof facility post 1911 then a 2nd date code would be applied. Odd though that the diameter didn't seem to vary much and that there isn't a Crown over R / Reproof / Repair mark applied.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Wolfgang - that is an interesting idea. Crown Prince Rupprecht would have been 34 years old if the 1903 proof date is original. I wonder how likely a mistake it would be for a Berlin gunmaker to use a more typical Prince's hat for German and Austrian families rather than the House of Wittelsbach family one shown in Rupprecht's monogram?

Jan,

the probability is very small, because one would have claimed this crown immediately!
Another possible candidate is Richard Wittgenstein- Berleburg:

Richard Sayn-Wittgenstein der �ltere

With the right crown...

Cheers,
Wolfgang

Wolfgang - I think you might have just found the right owner. It is the right crown and I notice he was named Prince in 1904. If the August 1903 Z-M proof date is the original, perhaps this rifle could have been commissioned ahead of time as a gift to mark the occasion?

Familial Coat of Arms


soccer

Raimey - I can't see the "K" that you can or any gaging mark at all on the right side flat but took this picture just in case.

Many thanks Ian. The mechanic initials >>K.S.<< are just above the 8 forward of the right flat. The >>K<< was double stamped. Now I assume these are mechanics marks for the craftsmen @ Suhl so with that in mind, I'd say it noted effort, liability & compensation for K. Schlegelmilch of H. & K. Schlegelmilch, a late 19th century and early 20th century firm. I am sure the possibility exists for another Suhl mechanic or two plus a couple Z-M craftsmen, that is if they applied their craft.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Ah-ha! I see it now - very good eye on that and thanks so much once again for sharing your knowledge on these things.

I took casts at the chamber and muzzle last night which yielded a groove diameter of 0.389 inches / 9.89 mm and a land diameter of 0.382 inches / 9.70 mm. I thought this was a bit strange.

Do you mean the difference between stamped 9,5mm dimension & the 9,7mm measured? The difference between 9,9mm and 9,7mm seems correct.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Yes, the fact that I will be custom casting a .391" bullet which seems to be in "no-man's land" between typical 9.5 and 10mm bullets. Or maybe there was no such thing as typical for this vintage.

Best,
Ian

You might be interested in these threads:
https://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1238877509
https://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1557453853

Great link to info by our Steve Meyer.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thank you, Steve! That is fantastic and you saved me lots of trial, error, and searching!

Yes, BPESteve / Steve Meyer is well versed in the old black-powder rounds. Years ago he used to post quite a bit. He may read threads here, but I have not seen him post in a almost a decade?