|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
0 members (),
815
guests, and
5
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums10
Topics38,445
Posts544,841
Members14,406
| |
Most Online1,258
Mar 29th, 2024
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 548 Likes: 86
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 548 Likes: 86 |
Springer for which Ludwig of Bavaria? Looks like it was removed from and belongs in a museum!   This last pic looks like a museum mark? What does it say? 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 548 Likes: 86
Sidelock
|
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 548 Likes: 86 |
Looks like German for Windhoek Namibia Bavarian colony in Africa
I could be chasing wrong rabbit but I dont believe so?
Last edited by Jtplumb; 09/13/20 12:26 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 548 Likes: 86
Sidelock
|
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 548 Likes: 86 |
Ok I found the rock Island auction sale
Historic Engraved Joh. Springer's Erben Double Barrel LeFaucheux Type Underlever Hammergun Ordered by Crown Prince Rudolph Habsburg
Browned twist barrels respectively signed "JOH. SPRINGERS ERBEN IN WIEN" and "K.K. KAMMER GEWEHR LIEFERANTEN" towards the breeches, matte rib bearing a bead front sight and engraved with a spray of foliage at the breech end, 2 inch chambers, and cylinder bore in each. Casehardened action with sculpted percussion fences, chiselled with the crowned monogram "L," and with dark horn cover with checkered tip to the underlever, casehardened bolted back action locks each signed "JOH. SPRINGERS ERBEN/WIEN" on ribbons, sprung front trigger, casehardened trigger guard and dark horn scrolled pistol grip finger rest. Well-figured 14 inch stock with raised cheekpiece and checkered grip and permanently attached forend. The left side of the butt is stamped with an eagle and "ORTSPOLIZEIBENRDE/NO./WINDHOLK/2787", steel buttplate with hinged trap-cover engraved with the serial number, the trap containing a takedown cleaning rod, rear iron sling mount and front sling mounting point beneath the barrels (loop missing). Decorated throughout with best quality border and scroll engraving. Weight is 6 lbs. 14.2 oz. This gun bears Belgian black powder only proofmarks (non-definitive) and the German crowned "V" Vorratszeichen mark and was meant for use with ball or bullet. The makers have kindly confirmed that this shotgun was completed in 1878. The makers records note that this was ordered for Crown Prince Rudolph Habsburg, but the presence of the chiselled crowned "L" monogram indicates the actual recipient was almost certainly Prince Leopold von Bayern. Barrel measurements: right nominally proved at 17.0mm, measuring 17.0mm+, minimum wall thickness 41; left nominally proved at 17.0mm, measuring 17.0mm+, minimum wall thickness 45. Provenance: Property of a German Prince, great, great grandchild of Emperor Franz Josef I, Emperor of Austria and King of Hungary.
ORTSPOLIZEIBENRDE Translation is police department?
Last edited by Jtplumb; 09/13/20 12:19 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 548 Likes: 86
Sidelock
|
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 548 Likes: 86 |
Prince Leopold von Bayerns monogram is not the same as the L on this gun, so I believe auction house fellow got it wrong. Whos gun was this?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,775 Likes: 183
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,775 Likes: 183 |
Well, the Crown over V info in incorrect. But the seller gives that Springer did provide some info?
Jani is well versed in crowns but his is on holiday in Kocevski Rog / Slovenian Woods chasing bear.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,775 Likes: 183
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,775 Likes: 183 |
>>ORTSPOLIZEIBENRDE - NO. - WINDHOLK - 2787<<.
One or both seem to be misspelled. Too, Nummer is typically abbreviated Nr.?? But yes, arms to flow thru the Local Police Department where the paperwork is processed to go to & fro... Someone may have turned it in @ some point? But there seems to be some critical pieces of the puzzle missing or the info provided is rife with errors? I would want to see the actual Springer ledger.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 129 Likes: 5
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 129 Likes: 5 |
There are oh so many different crowns. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/RangkroneIn any case, this appears to be of high rank, somewhere between Duke and royalty. Which state (Bavaria, Prussia etc.) I have no idea. The stamping on the stock I read as ORTSPOLIZEIBEHRDE WINDHOEK Local Police Office in Windhoek, then Deutsch-Sdwestafrica, now Namibia Meaning the gun was there before 1915 and had to be registered with the local police fuhrmann
Last edited by fuhrmann; 09/13/20 08:44 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 548 Likes: 86
Sidelock
|
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 548 Likes: 86 |
Rudolfs younger brother was Karl Ludwig heir to Austrian Empire?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,461 Likes: 207
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,461 Likes: 207 |
It is not likely that a "bespoke" Austrian made gun, completed in 1878 would have a Vorratzeichen mark. This mark is likely for something else, suggest checking Belgian proofmarks. Fuhrmann has the correct spelling, BTY.
Mike
Last edited by Der Ami; 09/13/20 12:57 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 129 Likes: 5
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 129 Likes: 5 |
Rudolfs younger brother was Karl Ludwig heir to Austrian Empire? Karl I, born 1887 as Carl Franz Joseph Ludwig Hubert Georg Otto Maria von sterreich....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 129 Likes: 5
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 129 Likes: 5 |
Prince Leopold von Bayerns monogram is not the same as the L on this gun, so I believe auction house fellow got it wrong. Whos gun was this? I do not know about the monogram, but Prince Leopold would have been my guess, too. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_von_BayernBut with the lack of detail info all we can do is guess.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 548 Likes: 86
Sidelock
|
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 548 Likes: 86 |
Odd other gun that was made for him had different monogram but info seems to go his way. Thanks
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 255 Likes: 3
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 255 Likes: 3 |
It is a prince's crown, but the L is much more likely a surname.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 255 Likes: 3
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 255 Likes: 3 |
The best place to find candidates would be the Almanach de Gotha. Of course, besides German princes, Austrian, Polish, Russian, Belgian, Dutch, and noblemen from other continental countries could be purchasing a gun from a prominent German maker. Unless Springer's records miraculously survived, identifying the original owner is not likely to be possible.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 972 Likes: 10
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 972 Likes: 10 |
In 2019 Jani asked me for advice about this shotgun. Felix had asked Springer in Vienna for information that the shotgun had been delivered to "Kronprinz Prinz Leopold". There was no Austrian Crown Prince Leopold. However, a German one, namely Leopold of Bavaria, came into consideration: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_von_BayernAs I found out today, this one was actually in the colony German Southwest Africa in 1909. Here an article from 2016 in the Allgemeine Zeitung Namibia: "In May 1909, Colonel General Prince Leopold of Bavaria visited the German colony together with his son Prince Georg. With special permission they go hunting in the Etosha National Park. "Any shooting was prohibited, but an exception was made for the high-ranking visitor, and Governor Bruno von Schuckmann even left the number of pieces to be shot to their liking," General Ludwig von Estorff recalls. He was to be thoroughly mistaken in this, however, and the size of their prey exceeded his worst fears." It can be assumed that his rifles were registered with the local police authority in Windhoek. The photo shows him (with a light hat) on his arrival in Swakopmund. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 972 Likes: 10
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 972 Likes: 10 |
It is a prince's crown, but the L is much more likely a surname. Never with aristocrats you will find the surname, only the first name.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 972 Likes: 10
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 972 Likes: 10 |
But it remains a problem for me: Since 1904 the official spelling was Windhuk instead of Windhoek......!?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,775 Likes: 183
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,775 Likes: 183 |
Wolfgang:
Is there a list of what the >>high ranking visitor<< did shoot?
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 972 Likes: 10
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 972 Likes: 10 |
Raimey,
unfortunately not!
Cheers,
Wolfgang
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,775 Likes: 183
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,775 Likes: 183 |
Ah, dash it all.....
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 129 Likes: 5
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 129 Likes: 5 |
Yes, thats sad! Those guns should be in the Jagdmuseum in Munich.... https://www.jagd-fischerei-museum.de/
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 255 Likes: 3
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 255 Likes: 3 |
It is a prince's crown, but the L is much more likely a surname. Never with aristocrats you will find the surname, only the first name. If that shotgun had belonged to a prince from a sovereign ruling house, my suspicion is that it would be considerably posher and more elaborately engraved, and it would bear a full armorial achievement (coat of arms), not simply a prince's crown. And only princes from ruling houses get called "Prince Personal Name." The non-sovereign prince typically is called "Prince Surname." There are heaps and piles of non-sovereign families is numerous continental European countries with princely titles. And many are by no means fabulously wealthy.
Last edited by David Zincavage; 09/16/20 08:54 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 972 Likes: 10
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 972 Likes: 10 |
The crown above the L is clearly a royal crown or grand duke's crown.  In all ruling houses, only the first name(s) were used in abbreviated form in the monogram. In Springer's ledgers it says: "delivered to crown prince Prince Leopold". The monogram on the gun corresponds to the monograms of Ludwig I and Ludwig II of Bavaria. It was probably also that of Leopold of Bavaria. They belonged to the house of Wittelsbach:  Correspondence Map of Ludwig II:  Even the high nobility did not only carry magnificent guns. On the contrary, the real hunters among them often preferred good utility weapons. A good example is the Ischler Stutzen of the Austrian Emperor Franz Joseph, built by the Ferlach gunsmith Fanzoj.  Cheers, Wolfgang
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 548 Likes: 86
Sidelock
|
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 548 Likes: 86 |
That monogram on the map is the exact monogram on said shotgun!
Dont think that is a coincidence.
Map info must be correct obviously.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 972 Likes: 10
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 972 Likes: 10 |
It is a correspondence folder of King Ludwig II - the one who went crazy and went into the water... He was only 21 years old.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 972 Likes: 10
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 972 Likes: 10 |
It is a correspondence folder of King Ludwig II - the one who went crazy and went into the water... He was only 21 years old.
|
|
|
|
|
