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old colonel #578659 08/25/20 01:45 PM
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Michael, what is so difficult about my last post that you mischaracterize what I said?

1) it's not free speech, it's speech allowed to whatever extent Dave allows

2) I am not afraid, nor am I threatened by left-wing BS

I will try to explain this as well as I can since you don't seem to get it. This is not a public forum, it's private, Dave can let in who he likes, and boot anyone he doesn't, you have no first amendment rights. You want a polite civil board, then people need to act politely and civilly, and that means no trolling.

If you were invited to the mixed-race wedding of a close relative, and one of the guests, a closet white supremacist, started running his mouth about how this whole marriage was wrong and an insult to humanity, would you find that very polite or civil? No, and neither would I. I would expect you would be helping that individual to the door. Or would you be defending his right to speak freely, and questioning why the wedding party is afraid of what he is saying?

So, here's the reality. That's no different than what is going on here. If some leftist wants to advance their political agenda (troll) on a gun board, someone is going to respond. Which will lead to a "discussion", someone is going to be in a bad mood, tensions will rise, and aggression will escalate, and here we are.

When the fight breaks out, insults are thrown and threats are being made, you can stand on a chair waving a handkerchief, and ask why we can't all be friends, but it's too late.

Politeness, courtesy and civility, yes, that means not insulting and threatening people. Treat someone you're arguing with like you would treat your grandmother. It's not hard to act civilized. But that also means, don't deliberately provoke people. Pushing anti-gun politics on a gun board is provoking people. If you don't want your arm broken, don't stick your finger in someone's eye.

I don't care if the fighting continues or ends, I can ignore what I don't like, but if you want to civility, the provocations that started this need to end. Courtesy. The folks on the left can show some courtesy by keeping their political opinions to themselves, and the folks on the right can extend that courtesy by disregarding their left wing political leanings and treat them like fellow Christians (if you're not Christian, no offense, sincerely, was intended). We need silence on both sides of this debate.

Tim

Dave Weber #578660 08/25/20 02:05 PM
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Tim, your post addressing Michael is all well and good....lots in there that makes sense. Except one thing.

I'm no left wing troll. Michael is no left wing troll. Dr Drew is no left wing troll. There are many more of Keith's targets who are not left wing and who don't troll. All I did was ask Keith to rein in his worst instincts when attacking people, first and for a long time in private as we did have a relationship and finally in public. A profound crime and double cross in Keith's mind.

I look at threads in the single barrel forums on occasion, where RMB and SKB post regularly. Not a hint of left wing garbage...just discussion germane to the topic. Keith enters the forum unprovoked and attacks. I'll say it again.....you aren't looking at the reality of what goes on.


The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
Dave Weber #578661 08/25/20 02:14 PM
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Would it be so hard for folks on the left and right to show some courtesy and both leave their politics at the door. I thought that it was meant to be a double gun forum after all not a political platform

nca225 #578664 08/25/20 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: nca225
....That is an amazing amount of burden shifting going on here.

All of the onus to behave is on the lefty democrats to "behave" and better make sure not one of them mention something that could upset your sensitive ears.

I have to admit, that sounds a lot like what I heard around here over a year before about letting african americans partake at a "public" beach (featuring a bunch of trump signs) in the south, that they were welcomed so long as they behaved, treated the white women properly and didn't swear.

You may want to reflect a minute on why you think your getting "trolled" and what exactly that "trolling" is.

And frankly, if you think being confronted with facts and truth is trolling, well then, there is not much more that could be said about that.

Uh oh, it is woke and has been victimized. At great risk of being shredded by progressive talking points I’ll ask, why are you checking out the fellows at the beach?

Dave Weber #578667 08/25/20 03:11 PM
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As per usual. Nothing of substance to respond to save for the obvious about who really is feeling victimized but, by all means, spin away!


Forum: a medium of discussion/expression of ideas. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forum
Dave Weber #578668 08/25/20 03:22 PM
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I am looking at the reality. Yes, Keith is a distraction, and his behavior, to describe politely and understatedly, is rather poor. I've already said it can be repulsive, or didn't you read that? But the reality, is that left wing trolling, created the monster known as Keith. I never said you, Drew, or Michael were left wing trolls. As you admitted, and I'm not blaming you, you and him got sideways, indirectly, over political spats, as did Drew and Michael, unless I'm mistaken. Unfortunately, Keith has little self-control and doesn't see the consequences of his actions.

Fights bring out the worst in people, and unfortunately, some people have a large reservoir of bad intent to draw upon. Keith has plenty. But again, if certain individuals had exercised some courtesy and not yelled (racial slur of your choice) at a mixed-race wedding, none of this would have happened.

If you, and Drew, and Michael, and everyone who agrees with you, petitioned Dave to erase ALL posts by RMB, or NCA, or King, whenever they started dispensing their political wisdom, they would get the idea and leave their trolling at home. And the same could be done to Keith whenever he starts a personal attack, and he would learn to play nice. And you would have civility.

But if you are going to focus on Keith because of your personal history, and ignore the trolling that created this, I don't know what to say.

Tim

nca225 #578671 08/25/20 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted By: nca225
Originally Posted By: Tim in PA
The only cancel culture here is those wanting Keith canceled. I don't care if Dave bans political conversation or not, I'm not threatened by people too stupid to string two ideas together and realize they're sawing off the branch they're sitting on. But if you want a polite board that focuses on doubles, then people need to keep their left wing ideas to themselves. The plain simple reality, is this, let the leftists troll the board, and this is where it will end up


That is an amazing amount of burden shifting going on here.

All of the onus to behave is on the lefty democrats to "behave" and better make sure not one of them mention something that could upset your sensitive ears.

I have to admit, that sounds a lot like what I heard around here over a year before about letting african americans partake at a "public" beach (featuring a bunch of trump signs) in the south, that they were welcomed so long as they behaved, treated the white women properly and didn't swear.

You may want to reflect a minute on why you think your getting "trolled" and what exactly that "trolling" is.

And frankly, if you think being confronted with facts and truth is trolling, well then, there is not much more that could be said about that.







If I were going to go on a fishing forum, populated primarily by liberals, I would keep my right wing facts and truths to myself. Its good behavior not to antagonize your companions.

Apparently, it's a liberal illness to feel you need to insert yourself into a group of conservatives, and spew misinformation in the quest to convert them into intolerant, hypocritical, authoritarian comrades. It seems that all you ever post is anger and bile, are you really that delusional that you think you are accomplishing something?

Tim

Tim in PA #578672 08/25/20 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tim in PA
Michael, what is so difficult about my last post that you mischaracterize what I said?

1) it's not free speech, it's speech allowed to whatever extent Dave allows

2) I am not afraid, nor am I threatened by left-wing BS

I will try to explain this as well as I can since you don't seem to get it. This is not a public forum, it's private, Dave can let in who he likes, and boot anyone he doesn't, you have no first amendment rights. You want a polite civil board, then people need to act politely and civilly, and that means no trolling.

If you were invited to the mixed-race wedding of a close relative, and one of the guests, a closet white supremacist, started running his mouth about how this whole marriage was wrong and an insult to humanity, would you find that very polite or civil? No, and neither would I. I would expect you would be helping that individual to the door. Or would you be defending his right to speak freely, and questioning why the wedding party is afraid of what he is saying?

So, here's the reality. That's no different than what is going on here. If some leftist wants to advance their political agenda (troll) on a gun board, someone is going to respond. Which will lead to a "discussion", someone is going to be in a bad mood, tensions will rise, and aggression will escalate, and here we are.

When the fight breaks out, insults are thrown and threats are being made, you can stand on a chair waving a handkerchief, and ask why we can't all be friends, but it's too late.

Politeness, courtesy and civility, yes, that means not insulting and threatening people. Treat someone you're arguing with like you would treat your grandmother. It's not hard to act civilized. But that also means, don't deliberately provoke people. Pushing anti-gun politics on a gun board is provoking people. If you don't want your arm broken, don't stick your finger in someone's eye.

I don't care if the fighting continues or ends, I can ignore what I don't like, but if you want to civility, the provocations that started this need to end. Courtesy. The folks on the left can show some courtesy by keeping their political opinions to themselves, and the folks on the right can extend that courtesy by disregarding their left wing political leanings and treat them like fellow Christians (if you're not Christian, no offense, sincerely, was intended). We need silence on both sides of this debate.

Tim



You believe I don’t get it. I discern you do not see the implication of the “safe space” you believe you should be entitled to. Explicit in your post is that liberals should not post their ideas here. Your reasoning is classic cancel culture. You do not see it that way, but that is how I read it.

Unfortunately unlike you there are some who appear to be afraid of left-wing BS. That is shown by vitriol generated.

We appear to agree it is useless to argue politics here, however you seem to think speaking the liberal view is bad manners that should be self-censored, did I misunderstand that?

While I believe the possibility of conversion is zero, I believe differences can be politely discussed.

While we appear to agree that violation of the board’s rules for postings is wrong, we do not seem agree on the nature of the site. I see it as allowing for more freedom than you. I am ok with that, the world would be dull if were zero differences. I can see why you think the way you do.

I doubt silence from both sides of the divide will occur under the current board rules. It would not kill me if Dave brought back misfires for the duration of the campaign season, or even requested we do as other boards avoid politics till After the election.

I believe it is possible for people on this board to get along if they choose to.

Last edited by old colonel; 08/25/20 04:01 PM.

Michael Dittamo
Topeka, KS
Tim in PA #578674 08/25/20 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tim in PA

........If you, and Drew, and Michael, and everyone who agrees with you, petitioned Dave to erase ALL posts by RMB, or NCA, or King, whenever they started dispensing their political wisdom, they would get the idea and leave their trolling at home. And the same could be done to Keith whenever he starts a personal attack, and he would learn to play nice. And you would have civility.........


So Keith gets his way? While I have. No issue of the removal of posts which violate website rules, your suggestion is to remove that which you politically disagree with.

I can see how since you seem to believe this board to be a pro-gun conservative only preserve that may make sense to you, I disagree.

I am comfortable enough with my knowledge of the world that I can react to opposing views without intellectual cleansing.

While you seem to oppose Keith’s methods, you seem to support his seeming end state.


Michael Dittamo
Topeka, KS
Tim in PA #578675 08/25/20 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tim in PA
I am looking at the reality. Yes, Keith is a distraction, and his behavior, to describe politely and understatedly, is rather poor. I've already said it can be repulsive, or didn't you read that? But the reality, is that left wing trolling, created the monster known as Keith. I never said you, Drew, or Michael were left wing trolls. As you admitted, and I'm not blaming you, you and him got sideways, indirectly, over political spats, as did Drew and Michael, unless I'm mistaken. Unfortunately, Keith has little self-control and doesn't see the consequences of his actions.

Fights bring out the worst in people, and unfortunately, some people have a large reservoir of bad intent to draw upon. Keith has plenty. But again, if certain individuals had exercised some courtesy and not yelled (racial slur of your choice) at a mixed-race wedding, none of this would have happened.

If you, and Drew, and Michael, and everyone who agrees with you, petitioned Dave to erase ALL posts by RMB, or NCA, or King, whenever they started dispensing their political wisdom, they would get the idea and leave their trolling at home. And the same could be done to Keith whenever he starts a personal attack, and he would learn to play nice. And you would have civility.

But if you are going to focus on Keith because of your personal history, and ignore the trolling that created this, I don't know what to say.

Tim



Tim, no reason for you have followed the personal history between Keith and I. However, you have it backwards. My comments today, 6 months ago and 2 years ago regarding Keith are the same. They are the same as when we had a relationship. I have asked him many times to rein it in. I don't have a hate on for him, as he has for me. I don't particularly care about what he thinks of me. What I care about is having a vibrant Double Gun forum that discusses guns and related subject, that attracts the best and most knowledgeable double gun enthusiasts from across the world. Keith is, because of his conduct here, the single biggest obstacle to that.

By being explicit about that and am not cowed by his personal attacks on me, I have exacerbated his ire to an irrational level.


The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
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