doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Engelbert Clever Blitz

Here is an wonderful but odd duck.
Looks to be blitz action, German gun, with belguim proof marks?
I�m not a buyer on this one but probably should be.
Have seen several guns marked Record before but what�s going on here?

Have a look here:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=266958

Gunwolf

Yeah, thanks to Dietrich's efforts, there's a good read here:

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/archives/archive-jaeger-franz/

I guess Herr Franz J�ger thought everyone would play nice with regards to his novel additions & business relationships, but few if any do. Interesting concern with the name of The Gun Improvement Company.

I have seen at least one of pu�kar Jan/Johann Novotn�(of Praze) wares that wore the >>Rekord<< / >>Record<< trademark. Seems all that are not badged J�ger are Belgian sourced.


https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=262825&p=2236683

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

But the case is yet another J�ger Gordian Knot and the only one to unravel it is no longer with us.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Ah, the Novotny is here:


https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=266958&page=4

Cheers,

Raimey
rs

Does this type of action hold up as well as a A&D? This gun has quite a few bells and whistles. I asked for more pics. It definitely has heel and toe plates, nice wood and awesome carved fence. Who knows if the action is tight, seller called a gun case a �bag�, wow this one would be a gamble. Now if I lived In Massachusetts things would be much different.

I hope somebody reading this gets the prize, it could be a great gun.
Starting bid is 1400.00.

Thanks for the info. I have seen the Herold guns also many nice guns with th Record trade mark but not with this action. Always have been extremely light weight with this action.

Not sure on the durability, but J�ger touted it and the platform is still used today, maybe by Merkel?

Lovely adornment but it is still a Belgian sourced double & the starting bid sounds optimistic.


Cheers,


Raimey
rse

Not the Franz J�ger novel advancement but another that I have always found interesting and concerns like Blaser and thanks to Wolfgang we now know that Lutz M�ller has adopted the platform:

Franz J�ger Kippblockverschlu�

https://lutzmoeller.net/Waffen/Kipplaufbuechsen/Kippblockverschluss.php

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

In looking @ Dietrich's site as noted above and thumbing thru the H. Barella catalogue where the 2nd 1/2 is that of Herold / J�ger, the Selbstpanner-Doppelflinten mit Simson - J�ger Verschlu� looks very similar to the subject longarm and indeed it may be comparable to the Modell 5E?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Yes it does, thanks for the reference. Looks very nice from the pics ( sellers have updated since my inquiries) At that price one would have to personally inspect. Pawn shop personnel( at least who I communicated with)are not well versed in gun terminology.

Also removed pad from my trade gun no other ID marks.
Did you see the small H with 6 pointed star above it earlier on the tubes, they were very faint?

>>Also the web site https://shotguncollector.com has a pdf of a Heinrich Barella Catalog available for viewing, the second half of which is a Catalog for Franz J�ger. Click here to view that pdf.<<

Click on the >>Here<< on Dietrich's website and the link takes on to Igor's website where the Barella catalogue of topic is located.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I read through all the above references, also found quite a bit more, that action was sold all over the place with 4 or more deviations in design. It must hold up alright since it was copied quite a bit. Thanks, it was a nice couple of hours reading about several great gunmakers/ retailers.
I am quite fond of German and Belgium box locks and this design seems to be a sort of marriage between the two. I see the same thing in the Lindners. Greeners appeal to my taste as well I guess because they look similar in my opinion, yep I said it �Greeners look German.�

Last pic I received

Nobody bid for 2 weeks so I bought the D*mn thing. Will post pics of markings soon. Least I sold 3 before I bought this one. Guess the unique action scared most. After all the info you guys gave I feel safe that the action will hold up.
With: 16 bore, 30� barrels, carved fences, scalloped action, ejectors, nice grain, cheek piece, toe and heel plates I couldn�t just leave it there.

Gun came in yesterday, wow looked to good to be true original 95% no cracks, screws untouched. It was actually, it unfortunately has a semi circle ring bulge halfway down the right barrel.
I have Dean on it already, he thinks it can be repaired? Fingers crossed this one could be my new best friend. 6.3lbs 30� tubes





This is the best quality belguim gun I have owned.
Also surprised how wide the barrel hooks are compared to the other Herold guns I have seen.

So this 16ga has both barrels choked .025 and a pigeon on the bottom.
Looks like it was made 1910-24 ish. I have another 16ga Belgium gun choked .020 .030 with 6 pigeons engraved on it made close to same time. Are these truly pigeon guns or just popular adornments of that era? Maybe Columbaire ?
They sure seem perfect for our doves.

Latest double Parallel underlug similar build Perazzi

Sorry not mine just found another similar type of action I think I�m up to a dozen now.
Perfectly strong enough.

Dean with Skeets worked his magic again barrels turned out great he didn�t even hurt the finish. I can�t say enough good things about Dean,he has always done a great job!

Clever, Bittiner, Scholberg, Jaeger effort goes out with pups.

No birds today only bunnies.

Little slow on German guns forum. Well I liked this Bittiner Jaeger platform so well I bought the 12 gauge version, actually the only other one of this model I have been able to find. I had found this 12ga when researching the first one I bought and was pleasantly surprised to see it go up for auction. Serial numbers are 10 digits apart but was retailed by KARL KORMES/LEIPZIG.

Lovely straight-hand stock w/ swivels and skelton toplever & buttplate. Büchsenmacher Karl Körmes in Leipzig hung out his gunmaking shingle in 1797(Seventeen - Ninety Seven) and peddled quality wares.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Büchsenmachermeister. Mechanische Büchsenmacherei, Fachgeschäft für feine Jagd- und Sportwaffen.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I think the straight-hand stock is a replacement( very good work, though). It is just an impression, I didn't see a work order or payment receipt from a stockmaker, the metal looks "German working gun", the stock doesn't.
Mike

It was replaced, original auction mentioned stock replacement. My 16 has toe and heel plates, this one has skeleton butt plate. Hopefully it has long trigger guard and was not switched to a straight stock. These two will make a nice pair. Same length barrels.
Will post details next week when it arrives, it’s mate is having wood refinished now. I will try to get cole to show me pics of inside of action, I really like these actions seem very strong and functional. I think scholberg used boehler and poldi barrels to boot. Actually I believe Raimey found that info years ago and I read it a while back. Record spezial stahl

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...ds=Poldihutte&Search=true#Post146611

Poldi steel info. There was an exclusive Poldi Antikorro rep in Suhl and Baumgarten has a Brenneke Safety Drilling by him. I just can't remember for the moment.

https://www.metalbulletin.com/event...ker/6572/a0ID000000X0jdnMAB/Presentation

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I found it

e: Belgian Guild Gun � Need Info
jdickson397 #441472 04/13/16 06:15 PM
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ellenbr
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"........advert is und Paul Scholberg L�ttich. It notes that if you have spezial steel needs for sporting weapons, you will be well satisfied to source either Schilling or Scholberg. So, Carl Bittiner was a sourced for B�hler tube steel and I believe was at the same address as Paul Scholberg. V. Chr. Schilling was the only game in town early on for Poldi Antikorro and that is why we seen his initials on Baumgarten's Brenneke with Poldi Antikorro tubeset #280. I think these tubesets were sequential but don't know just how high the number grew. But Paul Scholberg was the source in Liege so if you have a sporting weapon with Poldi Antikorro tube steel proofed in Liege, the probability is very, very high that Paul Scholberg was sourced."

From Below:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=201734&page=2

Seems Bittiner & Scholberg cornered the Liege market for B�hler and Poldi tube steel. These fellas just may have been the source for the bulk of B�hler & Poldi steel tubes.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Lovely effort. V. Chr. Schilling imported >>rough bored tubes<< from Liège and finished them.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I think both Jaeger and Bittiner/Scholberg had a hard time selling this gun due to its non traditional action, based on what I have read. Oddly enough some of those same people who shared that information claimed that this action was indeed stronger and they had never seen one off face. I personally like these 2 guns first based on strength, but also the fences are amazingly carved, the bottom of the action has decent engraving with gold pigeon, the border engraving is just enough and of course this grade came with their best wood and embellished ( skeleton/ tipped toe and heal) butt.
I was surprised to see the bolsters( engraved wings) on the sides of the barrels, very similar to D.M Lefevers bolsters. See pic below
I think that the bolsters make up for the box like aesthetics of the action. Those fences combined with the bolsters draw my attention away from the squareness of the action.

Who copied who with the wing looking bolsters that I find very appealing?


Mike I will purchase all the “ German working gun” actions that I can find that have fences like these and gold inlays. At the right price.

Gun came in today, guy who stocked it was really good. 6lbs 15oz 30” barrel choked .042 .042 bores both .727, gun was original straight stock with 70mm chambers. Makes me think it was made later than I first thought. With the choke markings should be 1910-24 now I’m leaning toward the 1924 mark. Super happy with 1 1/2 x2 1/2 x 14.5” stock fits great! Will have Dean open right choke to .015 later other than that this one is field ready.

Jtplumb,
The "working gun" comment wasn't an insult.
Mike

Didn’t sound like one. Just didn’t look like what I would think of as a working gun, I think of field model as a working gun.
No problem. I do value your opinions on these guns tremendously. I don’t know much except from what I have learned from you gentlemen here. So please don’t hesitate to comment, I was just doing the same.
Thanks

But don’t think I will find another of this particular model again.
Crazy thing was my wife told me to buy it when I showed her how I had found one to match my 16!
Wonder what she says when I show her a 16ga to match my Lindner or my DM Lefever?
Hopefully it takes me a year or so to find those, I don’t think she would be as enthusiastic. LOL!

16 gauge version came back cleaned up and tight as the day she was made.

Took out old gun with old decoys and had little fun after the rain.