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Just purchased this one. Any idea of date or anything else? I see it’s suhl nitro script. Raimey more pics coming.

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No insight, sorry. Saw and admired it though, congrats! Curious what she weighs?

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Thanks. Will post next week when it arrives. I plan on installing horn basket weave plate, so will weigh much less without the pad. Those buggered hinge pin caps should be easy Enough to fix. Hopefully everything is tight, you never really know till they arrive.

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It is an Anson & Deeley Body Action platform with cocking indicators made towards the end of WWI or the early 1920s in Suhl. The tubes were either sourced from Hänel where they were completed by the most competent mechanic Gebhard Helmuthhauser / Gebhard Helmuthäuser or Gebhard Helmuthäuser who was listed @ Bergstraße 1 or Gebhard Helmuthhauser / Gebhard Helmuthäuser or Gebhard Helmuthäuser was sourced for the tube work. There are some odd single >>K<<s on the tubes and the serial number is low so I would hazard a guess it was a Suhl young >>K<< mechanic that was trying to make some bread money @ the end of WWI.

Any monogram on the butt; logo on the floorplate or steel stamp?

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Raimey
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No names or other stamps I have lots of pics but won’t get gun till next week.
Never seen this engraving pattern before but like the style. I have extractor gun very similar. More pics






Thankfully they just added pad without cutting or squaring off..
Horn trigger guard and grip cap intact.
Still looking for that lindner 16 ga deal but till then I will keep finding these.
I will have to get those slots fixed it will drive me crazy.

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Here is my leberecht that looks similar. I can see taking both of these guns to have a backup on dove hunts. One zella other suhl. Amazing I bought both of these for less than a new Benelli. Insanity.

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Yeah, that floorplate engraving is different & looks like pineapples??? But there the engraved amoebas around the floorplate screw looks to form a >>H<<. Is there similar engraving on the sides of the frame? What ejector platform is it?

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Looks like the same ones on the kettners I asked about on other thread. What kind are they?
Always learning.


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No more H s but what kind of engraving is this at barrel breech?
Looks like crown then star then dot, very different?


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Definitely different. Need a German Eye like Wolfgang.


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The ejectors look to be the H&H or Southgate platform:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuIy2nRToaA

I'm sure there is some Gordian Knot there but I believe H&H & Southgate are one in the same or similar.

Dalys have the ole ejector in a box - Deeley:

Nr. 4289 of 1886 or N 6913 of 1888.

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The engraving on the top of the tubes are rows of punches, the day stars, followed by Crown over E, or C or similar.

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Raimey
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If I were you, I'd send some images to engraver & historian Hendrik Frühauf in Suhl as it is novel enough to possibly grab his attention. If anyone would know, he would.

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Will do. So what’s the story on unmarked German guns with lots of bells and whistles. Most of what other people call guild guns are usually plain models from what I have ran across? Odd gun

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Could have been a unknown young mechanic startup or maybe the client didn't want any sign of a maker's mark? Could be that the maker cobbled together an ensemble of components from various sources & worked off most of the marks?? But the adornment is quite unique.

Many times trade guns are the very best values.


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Raimey
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Very nice find...

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Not to hijack the thread(& I'll gladly start a sole on in the general section) but for those Lindner - Daly aficionados that have fondly gazed @ the adornment on the wares of Charles Daly, below is a link to the culprit for the adornment being the master mechanic engraver Fritz Heimbeck, who is featured about 1/2 way down on info mined by Mr. Schuknecht. Capital effort on all fronts. I just cannot say enough about the preservation & propagation on info on German guns from the Golden Era of gunning.


http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/about-the-guns/engraving-study/

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Raimey
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Gun came in at 6.5 lbs with pad.
Had lots of crud on it. I believe somebody replaced the hinge pin it is super tight and on face, shame they didn’t know how to use a proper screw driver.
Here is th clean gun.






Gun is pretty nice hard to believe nobody wanted their name on it.

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Indeed, that is some nice lumber. Any initials on the wood near the POW grip? Anything on or under the buttplate?

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Raimey
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I have a basket weave butt plate on the way, will check under pad soon. No other ID marks. This thing is choked .030 and .038. That’s the tightest 16ga I have ever had. Wood ducks and turkeys beware.

Thanks Raimey for all your help, I wouldn’t have been able to buy such nice examples with out the information I have received from you over the last several ( maybe 20 ) years.

I will never forget that fellow arguing with you over A
Prussian gun and you threatening to break his Monocle. Funniest thing I ever read on a gun / sporting site!

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Yeah, >>smashed monocle<<. I watched an abundance of >>Hogan's Heroes<< re-runs as a lad & watch them even till this day, if I can stay awake long enough.

But I have to attribute the knowledge to Dietrich Apel, and others, who in particular sunk his all, including monies, to get the awareness of German guns out there. Without him, German guns would not come close to approaching the value of their English cousins.

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Raimey
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Jtplumb,
I can't say the hinge pin wasn't replaced, but replacing it often results in a small "gap" in front of the underlug, which is not obvious on your gun. Another method of tightening a gun is sometimes performed on one that is "for sale". In this method, the hinge pin is expanded and the forearm "iron" is stretched( bearing harder on the frame). Until it "wears in", this usually results in the forearm being harder to remove. You might be able to tell if this was done. If you take the "iron" out of the forearm, you might see dimples on the backside, caused by a rounded chisel like punch used to stretch it out a couple thousanths. The gun was made before modern shot cups( Suhl didn't start dating the proofs until 1921-2), so I wouldn't hesitate to open the chokes to work better with modern shells. You can be proud of the gun, enjoy it.
Mike

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Thanks Mike.
Patterned gun at 30 yards today with my 2 1/2 7/8 oz loads, both barrels pretty much the same pattern. I will Probably use 3/4 loads for doves should be lots of fun at 40- 50 yards.

I did find Smaller faint marks On each tube capital H with 6 pointed star above.
Raimey did you see those in pics? I missed them before.

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Just want to echo Raimey's comments about Dietrich Apel!He spent many hours on the phone answering stupid questions from me when I first became interested in drillings and then continued to educate me as I progressed to BBFs and on.
Beautiful gun there. Thanks for sharing so Raimey and Mike and others can continue to educate me.

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Beautiful gun. Great find.


The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
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Thanks,
Shot some 5 stand with it Sunday, surprised myself shot it quite well with those tight chokes. Just have to decide if I will case color it again or just fix those hinge pin covers. Will have barrels properly blued and wood refinished. Gun is super tight so may just leave action alone other than those covers. Horn butt came in today.

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Not that you are asking but, while I've been known to re-CCH more than a few actions, this one I would leave alone. Fresh finishes on the wood and the barrels and that action should pop. See the thread on the Lindner Daly restoration from a few months ago for examples of how just giving the action parts a cleaning in an ultrasonic machine can really bring out the best that may be there.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=569690#Post569690


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Suggestions from you guys are most appreciated. I have had an action warp and gunmaker make mistakes that caused a tight gun to be a tad loose. It was my first British gun, a Greener and I have never gotten over that one.
Thanks

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My Lindner is coming home soon from Dennis Smith I am looking forward to seeing what the wood looks like now. Here is the before pics




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The "before" pictures show a pretty nice piece of wood. What was the issue that you needed Mr. Smith to address?

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Small crack in wrist and a leather pad were a must, had it all done since was sending it off.

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OK. Just wondered. That's as nice a piece of wood as ever I've seen on German gun of that quality.

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I don’t know much about layout but I thought the same when I bought the gun. It’s just a 185 but at 6.5 lbs and 28” barrels it should be as nice a gun as I ever thought I could have.

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“Just a 185” ???

They are all fantastic guns and yours has a beautiful piece of wood on it. Please don’t forget to post the “after” pics.


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Will do! Anybody have a pic of a lindner that was made for German market not Daly? I have heard of them but never seen one?

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I haven’t seen one. He also made guns for one or two other American retailers but only a few, as I understand it.


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I ran across one at a gun show decades ago it was a Jakob something or another
I couldn’t swing a grand back then. Funny I can still see the gun it was a 16. Easy to remember my youngest has that name. It was Mint!

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Short of finding a Diamond quality( several different diamond quality grades as I understand ), a Lindner made for European market or one that doesn’t fit a known grade like Mr. Mann’s Lindner would be my wish( dreaming big).
I have an old pic I copied of his unknown quality Lindner somewhere it was almost 100% scroll work, super nice!

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Josef Jakob, Best of the Best U.S. of A. mechanics. Gesteck was sourced thru S,D&G from Lindner.


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Raimey
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Originally Posted By: Jtplumb
.....

I did find Smaller faint marks On each tube capital H with 6 pointed star above.
Raimey did you see those in pics? I missed them before.


No, I missed them sounds like G. Helmuthhauser or Haenel?

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Raimey
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Originally Posted By: ellenbr
..... The tubes were either sourced from Hänel where they were completed by the most competent mechanic Gebhard Helmuthhauser / Gebhard Helmuthäuser or Gebhard Helmuthäuser who was listed @ Bergstraße 1 or Gebhard Helmuthhauser / Gebhard Helmuthäuser or Gebhard Helmuthäuser was sourced for the tube work. ......




Unless you mean those in the above pic?

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Besides the big H, there were 2 capital Hs with 6 pointed stars above them that I can’t see or make out in this pic. 1 on each tube, but you are better than me at this. If you can see them here that’s awesome I could only see in fluorescent lighting. sounds like it just confirmed your original post above?
Thanks

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Well I seem to have found another gun made by this same unknown K guy?
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Looks like same engraver, pineapple/ sad daystar jibberish and barrel mechanic as well?
This one is even a bit more ugly than mine.

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Yes indeed. A Zella Sankt Blasii - Mehlis example from September 1923.

One sees that stamp on wares from Hänel where they were completed by the most competent mechanic Gebhard Helmuthhauser / Gebhard Helmuthäuser or Gebhard Helmuthäuser who was listed @ Bergstraße 1 or Gebhard Helmuthhauser / Gebhard Helmuthäuser or Gebhard Helmuthäuser was sourced for the tube work. I am not sure on the single >>K<<.


Serbus,

Raimey
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This one just came back,Cole Haugh did a great job. I had him CCH and add a leather pad to my length. Saved another classic German gun and wow I’m happy I did.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com][Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Fantastic wood. How does this one differ from Campero's??? I assume it passed thru the Zella-Mehlis proof facility?

Serbus,

Raimey
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This one is out of suhl, Campero’s is definitely a step up from this gun his reminds me of the Kettners(216 model)without the top mounted Kerner top sear. This trade guns engraving looks much better under new case colors, the wood and horn turned out great!
I have learned my length of pull is little longer than I once thought hence the leather pad.
I think this next German 16( the suhl game scenegun) will be a great mate to this one it’s the same measurements and will be receiving the same leather pad. Both have incredible wood for the grade of guns they are.

These 2 will be going on a later season dove hunt soon, I have a 80 acre corn field (not mine) being cut just in time next week.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Campero’s reminds me of this gun(kettner 216),but his has standard A&D sear
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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By the way, Cole repaired some missing horn on the trigger guard of that kettner(I also picked it up today and delivered it to my father in law, happy guy) with some Horn dust and epoxy mix. It turned out great as well.

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Sounds like a novel idea.

Too, the key is to discern if a German gun passed thru the Suhl proof facility or the Zella-Mehlis proof facility to point towards its origin. Now there was another proof facility but one gunmaker had it under his umbrella and he was about only one that submitted there. But the makers of Suhl considered the mechanics in Z-M >>Red Headed Step Children<<, but they did source them when they wanted to increase their profits. When a Suhl mechanic would make an error or churn out shotty work, they would say it was >>Zella-Mehlis<< quality work. When a water-table was jeweled or the like, the Suhl mechanics would say that was >>Zella-Mehlis<< effort to cover up shotty work.

Serbus,

Raimey
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Here is my family’s gun made and proofed in zella-mehlis far from shabby
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
I have seen many amazing zella guns I couldn’t afford.
I learned a long time ago ( with help from you gentlemen here)to value each individual gun on its own merit, sure some names demand a premium but I have seen many unnamed guns that were pretty amazing.
Especially continental guns.

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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Back on topic, new cch helps the deeper style engraving quite a bit. Especially if it’s not top notch like this example, not so on the fine game scene like the zella gun above, guy put some individual hairs on the deer, crazy.

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Now I wasn't commenting on the quality originating in Z-M but rather how the Z-M mechanics were viewed in the eyes of the Suhl makers. I am sure the it was similar in other countries like between the Worshipful Company of Gunmakers vs the Guardians on the little British Isles.

Serbus,

Raimey
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Who else had a proof house in Germany back then?

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Frankfurt an der Oder & I believe it ceased operations in 1939?? Collath had it in his facility under his umbrella. @ one point he had his own gauge designations.

There were the military ones where the craftsmen could sourced '88, '98 receivers & barrels, which still had origins in Liège.

Serbus,

Raimey
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Thanks great info, never warmed up to collaths action but did find a Raush that had a 2” 16ga chamber that I suspected was collath number 6. Never could get any measurements for those collath chambers.May be it was a number 4 i believe that was 16ga bore 6 was the 20ga bore but I’m guessing again.

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I stand corrected as below is the Official Translated Word as provided to me:

>>In order to regulate the ballistics system, ballistics tests were prescribed for all civilian firearms in Germany by the law of May 19, 1891. The intended test marks (also called proof marks or marks) were prescribed by ordinance of June 22, 1892. The testing stations were established by order of the state governments on April 1, 1893. Initially, there were three proofing stations in Suhl, Zella-Mehlis and Oberndorf am Neckar, which later became proofing offices. In 1905, there were additional proofing offices in Frankfurt an der Oder, Sömmerda, Munich, and in Germersheim.[1] Since 1991, seven active offices have been recorded.<<

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

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Jtplumb Offline OP
Sidelock
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Sidelock

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Another interesting thing about this German gun, this one has brown streaks in the horn that match color of the stock. That’s not the case of any others that I have owned. Quite nice.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Jtplumb Offline OP
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Sidelock

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Gun is back in service, “ I love it when the plan comes together “.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Jtplumb Offline OP
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To recap and finalize,I wanted to share this with other guys that enjoy German hunting guns or think they might.

I found the listing on gunbroker for this unmarked Suhl made trade gun ( doesn’t even have name of steel used just Nitro proofed) finish was a little worn, action metal slightly proud and had some odd but interesting engraving.
Now the positive, this gun had some great lines (sleek),action looked tight, barrels were almost perfect ( long with no dents or bulges), none of the horn was damaged, wood looked really nice with no cracks and long enough.

I asked the great guys here on this forum a few questions about it, which they answered.I can’t thank them enough.

THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR HELP!

I believe the purchase price was around 800.00 ( just want to show it’s not crazy expensive)after shipping, transfer and tip for FFL (keep that guy happy). Restoration ran about 1200.00 (kept him happy also)as I can remember. Oh gunmaker did find hammer was broken but the beast was still working with it broken, these German guns are hell for stout. ( he replaced hammer).

Anyway, my point is it was inexpensive compared to anything close in quality, an absolute joy to use and there is a bunch of them coming up for sale. Cuz the baby boomers kids who’s grandpa brought the thing home don’t care or know anything about it!


Here are some more pics before and after good luck and happy hunting.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Jtplumb; 02/05/22 04:00 PM.
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Jtplumb Offline OP
Sidelock
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Sidelock

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Old girl works well on the bunnies if you let them get out about 30-40 yds. I left the chokes alone tight!
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Sidelock
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Yeah, I highly fancy tight chokes as long as there is an open portal, they game really can't get away. Especially with large shot.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

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