doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com W C Scott and Son chamber size question

Somebody married Dolly, just not me. Rare is one thing but extremely rare would be another. A 2 3-4� or 3� factory chambered gun in that time period would be a true Dolly.

It is my understanding that for the pigeon ring longer chambers were sometimes ordered from the factory, even at that time. The loads might not have increased but it allowed additional wadding, therefore better gas seal. I am aware of 3� chambers ordered around this time, perhaps a decade later. Remember, in the early 70�s the only powder available was black and 3 1/2 drams of black with 1 1/4 oz shot left almost zero room for wadding in a 2 1/2� hull. If the gun you are referring to is relatively heavy, contrasted with a light game gun, then I suggest it�s possible the chambers are original.

thx Joe

it is a fairly meaty gun. Barrels are 30 inches and measure .727 front to back, with a couple thou variance at the most. Its a Damascus barrelled gun with very nice engraving, i could definitely imagine it as a live pigeon gun. You have given me much more to research, thx again for everyones input.

WWG 1st Edn 1881 refers to chamber lengths only as - "12 gauge and larger should be 2 5/8", 2 7/8" or 3 1/4" - better ballistics for heavier than standard pigeon/trap loads being produced by brass case guns, compared to a falling off in pattern quality in paper case guns with extended chamber length. (I guess that 3 1/4" refers to 8 G only at this date.)
As Joe points out there was an acknowledged problem to accomodate heavy loads and incorporate adequate length of wadding column in standard chamber length cartridge cases (hulls).

Presumably TT's Scott could be either 2 5/8 or 2 7/8" , if not actually 2 3/4" - as original or lengthened at some stage.

Boring of .727" would suggest a paper case gun rather than a brass case gun ( and if built actually in 1872 this date would likely be too early for it to be a designated brass case gun ).

As usual, more information provided on proof marks may help to indicate the primary design and intended quarry/use of the gun.

With regard to a date for introduction of 2 3/4" chambers it may be helpful to look through a few of the early catalogues of the ammunition manufacturers.

Quite right in that the Standard length was 2 1/2" back then but extra length chambers could be ordered for Live Pigeon guns and Wildfowl guns. Chamber length was not marked on the Proof Marks back then. The only hammer gun I have from that period with long chambers is a W.J.Jeffrey Live Pigeon gun. It was proofed for black powder when I got it but is now nitro proof. It was marked 2 3/4" with a small mark by the maker and was stamped on the forend loop and not on the barrel flats where there was no indication by the Proof House. Have a look with a magnifying glass for any small mark in an obscure place on the barrel. Slightly later ones were just marked with the letters 'LC' in a diamond mark with the bore size such as '12 LC' to indicate a long chamber; this was a Proof House mark. This mark appeared after 1887. After that chamber length was indicted by shot weight and not shown on the marks with the actual length until after 1925. Hope that helps but as someone says it may also have been later lengthened but if original I would expect some indication by the maker somewhere. Lagopus�..

great info everyone......thx again.

TT

I had a C&J 12ga sxs marked 2 3/4 on the fore-end loop, in small numbers, also in Canada.
Later than 1880, but maybe more common for the "Colonies"

The vast majority of Target and Live Bird guns using 1 1/4 oz. in the U.S. in the 1870s were 10b
January 3, 1878 Capt. A.H. Bogardus broke 5000 glass balls at 18 yard�s rise in 10 hours 40 minutes 35 seconds, missing 163, using a 10b W&C Scott with 3 1/2 dram 1 1/4 oz. 8s.

Jan., 1879, The Chicago Field
Jamaica Plank Rd., L.I., New York
Brooklyn Gun Club vs. Philadelphia Gun Club, 8 guns per side. Only two Parker guns on the grounds. Mr. T.E. Broadway of the Brooklyners used a Parker 10 ga. with close choke weighing 9 1/2 lbs shooting 4 1/2 drachms of DuPont's Diamond Grade and 1 1/4 oz of Tatham's soft shot. For the Philly club, Mr. H.A. Burroughs shot a Parker 12 bore with medium choke weighing but 7 lb 14oz. He shot 4 drachms of Hazard's Electric Powder and 1 1/4 oz. of chilled #7 in the left barrel and #8 in the right.
U.M.C.'s new paper shells were said to be the choice of most to carry their loads.
W&C Scott was the choice for most shooters with a pair of Remingtons and a Moore and a Williams & Powell.

That began to change in the 1880s

In 1883, Dr. W.F. Carver �The Evil Spirit of the Plains� was matched against Capt. A. H. Bogardus by the Ligowsky Clay Pigeon Co. in a 25-match series. He and Capt. Bogardus shot 100 targets each in 25 different cities, with Carver winning 19 matches, tieing three and losing three.
Bogardus shot a hammerless Scott, 7 lbs 6 oz; Carver a hammerless 12b Greener 7 lbs 12 oz.

A Cashmore hammerless Pigeon gun (I don't have the DOM) marked "3 1/4" CASES"

All very interesting, but if the focus of attention for the gun in question is a manufacture date of 1872, it should be realised that choke boring was only just being introduced. Proof marks at that date IIRC were principally stamped as bore gauge - and also muzzle gauge if barrels were choke bored. The word "choke" was stamped at a later date, choke designation having earlier been accorded the words "not for ball".

There are many references in the early 1880's to heavy loads used in trap shooting, in both 12 and 10 bore guns ( eg Capt. B and Doc C) - frequently heavy powder charges were matched with light shot loads in both 12 and 10 Gs, as also were moderate powder charges and heavy shot loads ( although 1 1/4 oz was max load under some rules). However these notes do not clarify matters on the question in hand.

So with the only information provided, and lacking a note of the actual proof stamps on this gun, the bore and muzzle measurements should give some clue to date of manufacture and intended use and by inference the original chamber length. Bear in mind that Greener, Scott and possibly Westley Richards were the main suppliers of trap and sporting guns to Nth America at this date, (and a few guns might ? have had specific chamber/bore/load stamps) but the great majority would carry the bare minimum of proof marks on the standard model exported to The Colonies.
Greener 1st Edn does not seem to specify standard - or even non-standard chamber length, however he does make reference to the powder available overseas being inferior in strength and by inference that larger charges may be necessary to achieve the desired performance ! - so presumably chamber length may be increased on specific instruction by the purchaser.
Perhaps also information on the lock design would help the guesswork here ie non-rebounding or rebounding ?

greener4me, you refer to the marking of 'NOT FOR BALL' as being relevant to this 1872 gun but in fact the NFB mark came in 1875 and were in use until 1887 so the original marks would not have this mark.
Also, it is little known that the word 'Choke' was introduced at the same time for recess or jug chokes guns. These show an identical muzzle and breech (9") measurement followed by 'CHOKE' not NFB. So the proof marks might read
M 12
B 12 CHOKE
for recess chokes
M 14
B 12 NOT FOR BALL
for normal chokes.