doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Dreyse Sideswing Transitional

Greetings. My wife just added this to her collection of doubles. If I'm correct, it's transitional and takes paper cartridges with brass bases rather than needlefire paper cartridges. It's 16 gauge.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

If I'm correct, is there any source for a proper load to shoot it? I'll be testing it with my bore gauge and other tools beforehand, of course. The bores are very clean.

Also, is there any estimate on manufacture date?

A image of the underside of the tubeset might garner a date range. It is an eccentric breech but I believe Central-Feuer/Fire and just a paper hull cartridge, which may be similar to the below:


>>
Advert showing Collath 1 gauge & 4 gauge in his gauge scheme.


Lancaster's contribution from NE

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=107196&an=&page=&vc=1




Proofmarks from previous page & note the 1 gauge stamp, which I assume to be a 12 bore? Also looks to have the same tubeset knitter initials.

0 = 10 gauge
1 = 12 gauge
3 = 14 gauge
4 = 16 gauge
5 = 18 gauge
6 = 20 gauge
7 = 24 gauge
8 = 28 gauge<<


https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=193971&page=all

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thank you for the links.

It is most definitely NOT a paper hull 16 gauge. There is no modern chamber. The images I've seen for similar era appear to be a brass base with an old style wrapped paper cartridge, tied at the front with string.

The small recess shown is all there is as far as what we'd consider a chamber.

The top matches what I've seen elsewhere and may be what this takes. A 16 gauge base DOES NOT fit in the recess, but the bores are .662"

Good to know & the term is for >>Randschlu�spiegel<< for the >>Randschlu�patrone<<. Great thread on NE below:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....0&fpart=all

Do let us know if you roll your own & how you roll them......

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Yes, I'm on that thread now.

I'll eventually need a few more of these.

I'm trying to find any idea of a load and what I can modify as a base. My initial guess would be under 1 oz shot, probably 3/4 for safety, and under 80 grains FFG, should keep me well under 5000 PSI, probably around 4300.

The base is the tough part. I can make a form for the paper wrap.

My initial guess would be 7/8 oz or less. I'll try to dig a bit to see what a load might have been. My I am sure S&B and others peddled them @ one time so data may exist.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I neglected to ask, but do the bores have any sort of rifling?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

>>the 0,71" Schlussspiegel cartridge use probably the same barrels like the 0,74" Randschlussspiegel cartridge with only a different chamber. this caliber was similar to 16ga Lancaster CF shotguns most used in germany before the great war and after
.as you can see the "old model" had only plain discs because the Schlussspiegel cartridge must have some kind of thick paper base the so called "Schlussspiegel" pressed against the plain disc and made the barrels end gas-tight when fired. of course it was not burned and must be remove when loading again or shot out with the next cartridge.<<

From the NE thread.

Also, there was some load data for a solid projectile version??:

>>Cal. d. Zdsn. 0.60''-5/24 Pulv - I dont find an answer for "Zdsn" but the sice of the receiver and 0,60" makes me thinking its for the prussian military cartridge<<


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Preussische Ordonnanz-Z�ndnadel-Patrone:

https://books.google.com/books?id=kU9mAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=Preussische+Ordonnanz-+Z%C3%BCndnadel+Patrone&source=bl&ots=Fhz7S44lKW&sig=ACfU3U36TCCsirBUbHlgpn9gJjGZM1JdSw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjny---rovqAhWlT98KHSBJDPcQ6AEwAHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Preussische%20Ordonnanz-%20Z%C3%BCndnadel%20Patrone&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=MQZcAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=Preussische+Ordonnanz-+Z%C3%BCndnadel+Patrone&source=bl&ots=qT2x40GMCj&sig=ACfU3U37RNCXpoJXxePUVGcx_PAnG_eDOg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjny---rovqAhWlT98KHSBJDPcQ6AEwAXoECAwQAQ#v=onepage&q=Preussische%20Ordonnanz-%20Z%C3%BCndnadel%20Patrone&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=-LFYAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=Preussische+Ordonnanz-+Z%C3%BCndnadel+Patrone&source=bl&ots=BRU70Lyw65&sig=ACfU3U1z1sSvFW6wXKFVSrI6OZDdQPpu2w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjny---rovqAhWlT98KHSBJDPcQ6AEwAnoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Preussische%20Ordonnanz-%20Z%C3%BCndnadel%20Patrone&f=false

Cheers,

Raimey
rse