doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com OT: 28ga Winchester Model 12

Was curious to see if anyone had the weight of this gun, can�t seem to find any info. Also we�re these guns made on a 20ga frame?

16-, 20- and 28-gauges all on the same frame, though a bit of interior milling is different for the 28-gauge. My Model 12, 28-gauge Skeet Gun with an after-market Moneymaker vent rib weighs a fraction of an ounce under seven pounds.

Wow. My first year model 12, 20 gauge is just a fraction of an ounce more that 6 1/4 lb.

With full pistol grip replacement wood.

Best,
Ted

I think my 16ga model 12 with a 26� barrel is less than 6.25lbs...

Both my late 1950�s M12 16 gauges were in the 6 1/4 pound range.

I can't speak for Winchester's, but Browning 28 barrels have thick walls, leading to the bloat.
Are Winchester 28 barrels super thick?

The browning 28 is 7.25 roughly, was curious about the Winchester

I owned a true 28 ga Winchester Model 12 skeet with solid rib many moons ago. Although I never weighed it, it was significantly heavier than a 20, had very thick barrel walls even at the muzzle where a 20 at the muzzle often wears very thin walls. It felt similar in weight to a 16 solid rib.

Interesting. I'm fairly sure the early 20 bore Model 12s were sub 6 lbs. They did have comparably petite stock and pump dimensions as well as 25-inch barrels. I've got one (up in the Great White North) and really like it, but...it doesn't fit me very well. I've handled exactly one early 28-gauge Model 12 and it wasn't as light as my little 20. I was a bit disappointed by that. It did sell for pretty substantial money though.

My original butt plate to muzzle 1953 vintage 16-gauge Model 12 Field Gun with 26-inch improved cylinder barrel weighs in at 6 pounds 11.6 ounces. It is the lightest Model 12 I own. My 20-gauge Model 12 Skeet Gun falls in between this 16-gauge and my 28-gauge. The 1953 Winchester catalog gives the weight of a 26-inch 16-gauge Model 12 Field Gun should weigh 6 pounds 5 ounces.

The 1916 Winchester catalog gives the weight of both the 16- and 20-gauge Plain Finish guns as "about 6 pounds."

I have a 1939 era M12- 28 ga. field grade- 26" solid rib barrel, 14 ring "raccoon ribbed" forearm, weighs about 7 lbs. Heavier than my 1931 era M12 field grade 20 gauge field grade 28" solid rib barrel.RWTF

How about posting a few pictures from multiple angles for comparison?

Do you fellas with factory original Mod12 28 gauges ever have trouble cycling rounds?

Not with 2&3/4" AA factory new loads, nor RST (The Steinway of shotgun shells, IMO). My dentist shoots a 28 ga. Beretta O/U, and we were hunting quail on a preserve a few years ago. I tried a few of his AA reloads in my M12- worked fine. RWTF

The 28 gauge Model 12 is a rough pumping gun, as is the 3" 12 gauge. My 28 may be broken in some day, but almost 70 years old, and it is still rough.

Good thing you never said that when Don Moody was alive!

In short order, this post would have gone on for 40 pages.

RIP, Don.

Best,
Ted

I once criticized the Rube Goldberg design of the take down system of the M12 compared to the Ithaca's and incurred Don's wrath. Don't mess with Texans. Gil

My 1937 vintage 28-gauge Model 12 Skeet Gun doesn't seem to like modern 28-gauge shells. It seems their rims are just a bit thicker than vintage shells. Last time I shot it, it worked "slicker than the hired girl's leg" with a box of vintage Winchester paper Super-Speed 28-gauge skeet loads. Like these, but with #9 shot --



Eightbore can probably figure out where the box of shells I used came from.

Also steel heads vs. solid brass heads being part of the problem. My 1950s era M12 in 16 ga. won't extract Herter's shells with steel heads. Gil

I was given a Model 12, 28 gauge Skeet gun and a case of Winchester shells for my Christmas present when I was 12. It was common practice to smooth the action up. For that they used valve grinding compound with oil. You would load a bit into any spot which had a bright wear spot. Then work the action to smooth out the action. I now know I was putting years of wear on the gun king this. But the result was a butter smooth action which seemed to almost pump itself.

Back then I had to buy my shells at the local Western Auto store. Never occurred to me that the only reason the had 28�s on the shelf was they got them in for me. I had to earn and save my own money to buy ammo. My father would know when I was getting enough money saved and would go into town and tell them to order my ammo knowing I would be there buying it just as soon as I had enough money. The reason he did it this way was I earned every shell myself which made them a value to me more than any gift would have been. I still love the one ounce loads of a number six shot and would love to take a few more ducks with them. They were great.

I�ve never had any interest in firing a 1 ounce load in a 28.

Granted, a 28 was never my only gun, but, regular 3/4 Oz loads in my 5 lb 12 oz Darne let you know, with some authority, that they have gone off.

Best,
Ted

I bought a BPS 28ga and got two boxes of shells to boot. That was years ago. I still have one box. I may get old enough to need to shoot a 28, but not today...Geo

Driving his family nuts, a hunting buddy got his M37 smoother not by using valve grinding compound, but while watching nightly TV with his family, he'd cycle the gun without ammo non-stop throughout the evening for as long as it took for the slide to move downwards by it's own weight without assistance with the muzzle pointed at the ceiling.

My Mod12 Heavy Duck is rough cycling as well. I've heard it said that the Mod 12 was an mediocre design manufactured to excellent standards. I've also heard that Simmons upgraded 28 gauges are much smoother than factory originals.

does this one make sense, based on the weight? pic 21 shows the weight.
https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/870831959

Rough cycling? Then there is the Remington model 31. Ball bearing pumpgun...Geo

I can tell you this Rick. Yes Simmons did an lot of ribs for Winchester but they would never be marked Simmons. The posts were not the type that would be on an actual Winchester ribbed gun either

based on other 28ga Model 12's the weight struck me as odd.

I�d never buy an original 28 bore without having it checked out. Lots of 20-28 counterfeited conversions out there.

My 1913 Model 12 20 was a bit of a basket case. I bought it cheap, tore it down, cleaned it up, re-blued it and restocked it. Since I'm weight focused a wee-bit I did everything to keep it on the light side, short of altering the stock. It's been a while but I likely did hollow out the stock a little. It's light, but I can't exactly remember how light anymore. The early 25-inch barrel guns are clearly the lightest, but they are also the smallest and have short chambers (necessitating either a modification of the gun or 2 1/2-inch shells). I had plans for it being my sons gun but... he's grown right through that size and is now taller than me. I haven't use it for a while but... Model 12s are in a class by themselves. Incredible build quality and incredible history. It's always fun to pick it up and handle it.

I�ve never, ever had an issue with the short chamber on my model 12 first year 20 gauge. No ripped ends, no excess recoil, no ejection problems, nothing. It has never had a short round in it, in the time I�ve owned it.

That said, I�m really glad it isn�t a 16 gauge. I�ve seen LOTS of hung up model 12 16 gauges, from every era.

Best,
Ted

The one ounce loads in a 28 are not that bad in a Model 12. I never worry about recoil in hunting situations. Few shells shot over extended time, often wearing heavier clothing. I even enjoy those monster 3 1/2� Roman candles in 12 & 10.

Ted is right. A short chambered Model 12 20 gauge will normally handle 2 3/4" shells. A short chambered 16 gauge will not. Both are great little 6 pound guns when loaded with the right ammunition.

Double post.

My 1913 Model of 1912 20ga has unaltered chamber and ejection port, and it works just fine with any 2-3/4� shells I have used. Mine was also a well worn beater when I acquired it, but it has the 25� barrel with solid rib, full choke, now reblued and fitted with modern Win factory checkered wood. Original wood boxed up for the next owner.

I had a Model 12 in 28 ga, 1935 vintage, 26" with mod choke and Simmons vent rib. My records show that it weighed 6 lb 15 oz..
It handled well and functioned perfectly. Bit heavy for a 28 gauge but still a real nice field gun.
Barrel was marked 2 7/8" chamber---I recall later models were marked 2 3/4".

Did I ever tell you about the detached retina in my shooting eye? I figured I would be learning to shoot from the other side, but, the doc warned me there was plenty of lattice (weak spots) in that eye, indicating it was likely I would be seeing him again. The vision in my shooting eye leaves a lot to be desired. I muddle along.

Recoil isn�t your friend.

Best,
Ted

Sorry to hear about your eye. Eyes are bad when they fail. Even a great eye doctor has limitation. I�ve had both shoulders revised, one rebuilt. Recoil is not anyone�s friend. Hunting I rarely notice recoil. But then again I like heavier guns just fine and rarely use super light weight guns. I shoot a 20ga/30� Flues which is 5.25 pounds and a Pape 20 which is about the same. My Ruger 28 is 6.25 pounds and the Ithaca 28 model 37 is about the same. The model 12 is no light weight so recoil is not excessive. I just wish I could shoot lead shot in it at ducks like I did 50 years ago. I wish I had those ducks to shoot again as well.

That was a Simmons upgrade since the 28G wasnt introduced until 1937. Again, I keep hearing those upgrades were smooth cycling guns. There is nothing wrong with an upgraded Simmons 28g- at the right price of course.

I keep wondering to myself how the factory 28 gauges come in 1/2 pound or so heavier than the 20s?

And, who bought them?

Best,
Ted

This one tops out at 7lbs 4 oz. the Browning model 12 must have been modeled after this style.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/931730286/Winchester-Model-12-28-Gauge-RARE-PIGEON-GRADE-SKEET-MIN.htm

Well, a 1 ounce load sounds doable out of a 7+ pound gun.

But, just because something is doable, that doesn�t you should.

Best,
Ted

I think my father bought mine with the plan to use it on quail if I decided I would rather deer hunt than upland hunt. My brother had gotten a Browning Superposed a couple years earlier for Christmas and decided he would rather have a rifle for deer hunting. My father bought him a Winchester Model 70 in 30-06 which for deer hunting where I grew up was almost overkill. Dad kept the Browning.

My first morning out with the 28 I killed a limit of ducks. First three shots were one shot kills. We had ducks back then on a little creek on the farm and the longest shot might have been 20 yards. It was love at first shot and has never stopped for shotguns for me.

I was �sorta thinking out loud, because 20 gauge gun would have been easier to feed-they likely had the ammunition on the shelf. Did your Dad meter your use by selecting 28 gauge, and telling the store owner when to get you some?

The 20, by most measures I can see, would have been more practical. Your Dad gave you a hell of a nice gun.

Best,
Ted

Model 12 28-gauges were made to fill a niche for Skeet shooters. Model 12 28-gauges in anything other than a Skeet Gun are very rare. The Model 12 28-gauge Pigeon Grade Skeet Gun linked is listed as a 1952 gun, but Winchester didn't begin cataloging the Winchester Special Ventilated Rib for smallbore Model 12s until 1954 --





Until then the 16-, 20- and 28-gauge Model 12s were only offered with plain or solid rib barrels.

Thanks! Too bad they didn�t list and weights

Ted, he might well have been thinking that I would be limited on ammo. 12, 16 and 20 were easy to find but 28's were not. I got one case of ammo every year at Christmas but that was never enough. I used that gun for everything from Dove, Quail, Tree Rats, Crows, Ducks and Geese when they were on the creek. After the first case all the shells I shot that year had to be bought and paid for my me. So I worked for extra cash whenever I could.

A lot of jobs were in the .25 to $2-3.00 range. Splitting and stacking a load of fire wood for the old Black lady who lived on the farm in a old shack. Dad paid, not her. She was there when we bought the farm and we kind of took care of her. I am certain she was well past 80 when I was just a little fellow. Still can see Miss Betty asking me if I wanted a drink of water as I worked. Said she would draw one out of her well if I did. It was an excellent lesson for life I think in hindsight. Take care of others and work has it rewards. In my case they came in boxes of 25.

I just never wondered at the time how or why the Western Auto Store just happened to have a case of ammo on the shelf almost whenever I wanted one and had the money to pay for it. As pointed out 28's were not very common. Mine was the only one I knew of in the county. To be fair I bought only one once Winchester paper shells loaded with 6 or 7 1/2' most of the time so getting what I wanted was easy. I did get a couple boxes of 5's and 4's once, for big ducks and geese but had to order those special and they lasted me for several years.

I have to go out of my way to find 28 gauge ammunition in a store, now. I don�t remember seeing loaded ammunition until I was in my 30s.

Best,
Ted

I find Ted's comment interesting. I don't by any stretch of the imagine discount it but down here in south Louisiana, about halfway between Baton Rouge and New Orleans, I can find 2 3/4 inch 28 gauge ammo pretty much anywhere. I took my 9 yr old Grandson with me to Cabela's today and we noted quite a few different loads by quite a few different manufacturers. Winchester, Federal, Fiocchi, Remington. I can even buy it at Walmart. I'm guessing the availability has something to do with the popularity of skeet and sporting clays? The same goes for 16 bore ammo. Even the small stores are carrying them these days. Now if only I could find 2 1/2" 28's I'd be in business!

We didn�t get a Cabela�s store locally until I was in my 40s.

When I was a kid, Federal still sold to gas stations and Mom and Pops in Anoka county. These were places that had an end cap with local ammunition, that was very attractively priced. But, it was 12 and 20 gauge, .22 rimfire, 30-06, 30-30, and maybe, maybe, .308. Target stores had a better selection, as did Woolworth and Montgomery Wards, and Sears, but, it was all priced higher, not just a little bit, either. 16 gauge was a red headed step child, the only stuff I remember came with a bolt action Marlin a friend bought for $50. He got a ton of ammunition with the gun.
Most of my ammunition came from a Holiday gas station in Anoka, or a different one on the way to the gun club.
You can�t buy ammunition at a gas station in town, I see a bit when I go a few counties North, but, it isn�t cheap. None of the other stores, save Target, exist, and Target might as well not exist.

Best,
Ted

The gun in the gunsamerica ad lists as a 1954 gun, not a 1952 gun as advertised, so it could be a legitimate factory vent rib gun.

Is it safe to assume that you could go to local stores and buy shotgun shells individually? I could walk in the local store and request shells and get them put on my parent's charge account. That was when I was 10-13 years old. That was routine where I grew up. 16ga was very common in my area then. Lots of 16 gauge bolt actions were around.

tHE ONLY "ROUGH PUMPING" M12's I have encountered are the short-lived Dog-Leg slide rod style, M12 3" Mag has those from about 1950-1953--I have 2 M12 3" Magnum duck guns- 32" full solid rib circa 1949, and a 30" full solid rib circa 1939--both with the std. straight style slide rod. Both are smooth as glass, and pattern like gangbusters with any steel shot load I care to run through them. I don't shoot the M12 28 gauge enough in a year to note some of the details you other gents have espoused herein. RWTF

I never did, that I can remember. My Dad owned and operated a huge country store near our house. I got my shells for free as long as he didn't think I was wasting them. The one exception was when I started "market hunting" squirrels and rabbits. He told me if I was selling for a profit I could buy my own shells and cartridges.

I'm sure he sold a few shells individually, such as buckshot, or slugs. But, most everyone would buy at least one box, even the poorer hunters in our area.

Many a time in my youth, I rode my bike downtown to the pawnshop and bought individual shells at a dime a'piece. I'll never forget the tin indian they had which was shot by one of the traveling sharpshooters they had back then. I was there when the indian image was shot...Geo

Never have bought individual ammunition. My Mom and Dad didn�t get a charge account (Montgomery Wards) until I had moved out of the house. My Dad had a gas card of some sort for emergencies, but, I don�t think it was ever used, he also had a $20 stashed in his car.
My folks didn�t get a color TV until 1981, or air conditioning until 1985. My Mom never understood the uproar about TV violence until she had a color set.
I�m still the only guy in my local circle that has a 16. There was a USMC
Vietnam Vet that my Dad knew, up the block, that had a Sweet 16 with a poly choke on it, but, I don�t think he ever used it.

Best,
Ted

Stan-just wondering- did you ever sell the fox squirrel tails to the Mepps Co. makers of the famous Mepps spinner fishing lures. Good money in the "tree rat" business, if you get enough of them. Do you get grey phase squirrels down in Dixie? Main reason I still hunt the little rascals- old time deer hunter told me, when I was 16- "if you want to be a good deer hunter, first learn to be a good squirrel hunter".. True that!! RWTF

All of the little neighborhood stores had a metal rack that held heavy paper cards. When you purchased something on credit the store keeper wrote the info on the cards. At the end of the month, or after your payday, you were expected to either pay some or all of the money you owed. No interest or extra charges were involved.If times were tough for a family the store owner often let things slide for a while. It was a small community and everyone knew everyone so the shop owner knew most folks that were having money issues. And most folks were honest.

Sorry to bring this topic back on track, but is there any documentation for weights of Model 12 28 bores?

The three mentioned seemed to hover around the 7 lb. mark. If the receiver is the same as a 16 and a 20, it stands to reason the barrel will be profiled a bit heavier, for that reason and 28 gauge pressure is likely a bit higher than either 20 or 16 gauge.
It doesn�t appear they were ultralight. There are bunches of fakes, too.

No connection to this one:
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101464653

Best,
Ted

OK, I finally broke down and weighed my Model 12, 28 gauge Pigeon Grade skeet. It is a real 28 gauge and a real Pigeon Grade, Simmons vent rib and Pachmayr Power Pac steel compensator. It is probebly the heaviest Model 12, 28 gauge out there at 7 pounds, 10 ounces.

Bill, thanks! Helps out a lot, curiosity got the best of me and I picked up a Browning repo, 7lbs 1oz. I had some older stocks and forend and swapped them out, now it�s 6 13oz, but really no real noticeable difference.

I'm not about to mess with my Pigeon. It is #5 factory engraved by George? Ulrich or more likely by his successor, Mr. Kusmit. Unfortunately, it has an aftermarket Simmons rib and went to Pachmayr for a compensator and recoil pad in the early fifties. An original gun without these add-ons would be worth a bunch of money on the collector market, but my rough pumping 28 will continue to make me happy when I take it out. I bought it at a local junk auction as part of a five gun Winchester set that included a nice 42 field gun and three other Model 12s of no collector value. Unfortunately, I had to bid the highest on the five guns to get the 28 Pigeon.