March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
1 members (SKB), 876 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,374
Posts544,015
Members14,391
Most Online1,258
Mar 29th, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
#573709 06/13/20 01:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
Gloria a Dios I have been gifted a cracked M12 Winchester Proof Steel barrel

Here is the previous thread regarding Winchester steels
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=561800&page=1

Most sources state that Proof Steel was 4140 (including Mike Hunter and Ned Schwing)
Winchester catalogs in the 70s state Proof Steel was “cold forged Chrome Molybdenum”.

Other internet sources however state “nickel-chrome-moly alloy steel”.



There is a '37' at the breech - does this mean 1937 DOM?

The crack at 17". There is a slight ring bulge there. The MWT is an impressive .072"! Bore is .732".



The barrel has (presumably) been cut to 25 1/2" and threaded for a choke device/Cutts?

I couldn't quite capture the marks on the external surface opposite the crack. Possibly where someone tried to pound down a bulge?



And THIS is the bore at the site of the crack. I could not get the camera to focus on what appears to be 2 annular rings/dents?





I would very much appreciate the thoughts of those here.
Is it possible that someone tried to use a hydraulic dent raiser, bulged and cracked the barrel, then tried to pound down the bulge??

So the muzzle end segment is off to METL next week and we will KNOW if Winchester Proof Steel is 4140!

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,444
Likes: 204
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,444
Likes: 204
Just conversation Doc Drew. If the scenario started with a dent, what might create apparent multiple dents, around the circumference, at a common distance down the bore? Maybe, it was fired with a obstruction, unrelated but possibly a reason why it ended up so short?

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
I didn't explain that very well. The annular dents now evident in the bore are outward from the bore, as if a pilot or hydraulic dent raiser was expanded.

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,313
Likes: 378
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,313
Likes: 378
The anvil of a hydraulic dent raiser would only exert force upon a small portion of the circumference. But you might consider the possibility of a different type of hydraulic forces at play. I'll toss out the THEORY that this damage could be the result of an excessive amount of grease or heavy oil in the bore when it was fired. I see a less prominent annular ring bulge beyond the two larger rings, so this might be an extreme example of rivveling.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 94
jlb Offline
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 94
What is rivveling?

jlb

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
I posted a couple of slightly better images.

Rivveling - A series of slight ring-bulges or wrinkles
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/clay-shooting/20190403/281827170117384

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,033
Likes: 45
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,033
Likes: 45
Regardless how your assay turns out Drew, you aren't going to prove anything with a sample size of one.

I thought it was generally agreed that the WP stamp simply indicated that the steel used in the product so stamped was, in the opinion of Winchester, simply the 'best' steel for the application.

'Winchester Proof' was used on a great many products over many, many, years it's difficult to imagine it represents a particular alloy.


"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 42
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 42
Shotgunjones-

I agree that statistical methodology requires multiple samples to provide statistically significant findings that can be used to speak authoritatively about the object [or subject, or group, or event] being evaluated.

That said, I also thoroughly believe that a scientific examination of a sample of one gives more insight than an examination of zero- which allows us to speculate without any shred of evidence to point in any direction.

I have never poured steel. I don't know how often the alloy of a steel firearm barrel is changed, while it keeps the same name.

It seems just as likely to me that they would keep a formulation that began with them clearly demonstrating that it was able to digest the 'blue pill' loads without a hiccup.

After such thorough testing to proof how strong it was, it seems that they would try to keep the same alloy, so that the barrel would stay as strong.

But, again- I am just guessing from a sample of zero.

Does anyone know one way or the other if the 37 refers to the year made?

I seem to remember reading that elsewhere as well.

As an owner of more than one Model 12, I am definitely interested in the outcome of this.

Even if I understand that the sample of one doesn't mean EVERY barrel is exactly the same- it gives more info than it did before.

Just need to find more donor barrels...

Last edited by bczrx; 06/13/20 09:09 PM.

Classic 'field' SxS's are what draw me in- that way I can have more than one!
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,444
Likes: 204
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,444
Likes: 204
Originally Posted By: bczrx
....I also thoroughly believe that a scientific examination of a sample of one gives more insight than an examination of zero- which allows us to speculate without any shred of evidence to point in any direction....

It's not related to metallurgy, but there is some thought that a single firearm or barrel failure can be analyzed for the purposes of arriving at a definitive conclusion. But, speculating can be interesting?

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,033
Likes: 45
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,033
Likes: 45
As far as why it cracked, I think you're on the right track about a bulge being hammered out and the material becoming work hardened.

This one fared better than the one my pal blew up on New Years Eve 40 years ago. Old shells, a dud, he racked in a new one with the usual results. It split down the side. Proof Steel, just not idiot proof.


"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.068s Queries: 35 (0.048s) Memory: 0.8526 MB (Peak: 1.8987 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-29 10:15:49 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS