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Originally Posted By: SKB


Notice the multiple small outward bulges, they could easily be from a hydraulic dent lifter, used in several different positions around the outer diameter of the barrel.

Even someone as biased as yourself should be able to see that Billie kEITH, unless you are just too stupid.



Well Stevie, when I hoped that even a gunsmith who supports anti-gunners wouldn't be stupid enough to do that sort of damage with a hydraulic barrel dent raising tool, you must have known I was thinking of you. I see my post struck a sensitive little nerve.

Fact is, if you took a moment to remove your head from your ass... a close look at those marks shows that they are not all the same... as they would be IF the same hydraulic dent raising anvil had been rotated around the circumference of the bore.

Furthermore, when have you ever seen a barrel dent that went 360 degrees around a shotgun barrel, and would require 360 degrees of rotation around the bore? And what kind of idiot... besides you... would make a series of bulges all the way around the barrel, after noticing that you had gone too far after one or two tries?

It's pretty easy to see just who is biased here Stevie, and also who is ignorant enough to grasp at any straw, no matter how ridiculous. On the other hand... a so-called gunsmith who farms out as much work as you probably doesn't have much experience raising dents.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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Originally Posted By: keith

Originally Posted By: SKB


Notice the multiple small outward bulges, they could easily be from a hydraulic dent lifter, used in several different positions around the outer diameter of the barrel.

Even someone as biased as yourself should be able to see that Billie kEITH, unless you are just too stupid.



Well Stevie, when I hoped that even a gunsmith who supports anti-gunners wouldn't be stupid enough to do that sort of damage with a hydraulic barrel dent raising tool, you must have known I was thinking of you. I see my post struck a sensitive little nerve.

Fact is, if you took a moment to remove your head from your ass... a close look at those marks shows that they are not all the same... as they would be IF the same hydraulic dent raising anvil had been rotated around the circumference of the bore.

Furthermore, when have you ever seen a barrel dent that went 360 degrees around a shotgun barrel, and would require 360 degrees of rotation around the bore. And what kind of idiot, besides you, would make a series of bulges all the way around the barrel, after noticing that you had gone too far after one or two tries.

It's pretty easy to see just who is biased here Stevie, and also who is ignorant enough to grasp at any straw, no matter how ridiculous. On the other hand... a so-called gunsmith who farms out as much work as you probably doesn't have much experience raising dents.


I have seen and repaired all manner of damage, usually caused by amateur hacks such as yourself. I can lift dents in my sleep using several methods, occasionally even a hydraulic dent lifter.

The only nerve you hit is that I have tired of your self appointed expert status and will continue to point out when you are mistaken, which is quite often.


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I don't have any "self-appointed expert status" Stevie, and nobody here requires "expert status" to know that we just do not see barrel dents that go 360 degrees around a barrel, and repeat that 360 degree damage in more than one location in the bore.

But I'm sure you can show us some before and after pictures of such damage that you've encountered in your vast experience of farming out work to real gunsmiths... while you spend all day here going out of your way to prove your ignorance.

I wish Dewey Vicknair was still here. He'd be laughing his ass off at your silly observation about this barrel damage.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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Originally Posted By: keith
I don't have any "self-appointed expert status" Stevie, and nobody here requires "expert status" to know that we just do not see barrel dents that go 360 degrees around a barrel, and repeat that 360 degree damage in more than one location in the bore.

But I'm sure you can show us some before and after pictures of such damage that you've encountered in your vast experience of farming out work to real gunsmiths... while you spend all day here going out of your way to prove your ignorance.

I wish Dewey Vicknair was still here. He'd be laughing his ass off at your silly observation about this barrel damage.


Gee taking dents out of barrels is so routine I do not take pics. I will next time just for you Sweet wILLIAM.

Those are bulges, outward, not dents. You would think a rocket scientist such as yourself would be able to tell the difference.


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If you had any intelligence at all Stevie, you would understand that there would not be 360 degrees of outward bulges... made by an imaginary asymmetric hydraulic dent raising anvil, if the barrel had not been damaged 360 degrees around the circumference.

But you don't have any intelligence. And someone who takes the time to post pics of themselves wearing buckle-strap girls shoes would certainly take the time to take before and after pics of this sort of 360 degree dent removing....

Keep grasping at straws. I love it when you show how pathetic and stupid you are.

Originally Posted By: SKB






A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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It is not an even 360 degrees, notice the several small bulges around the barrels circumference.

I switched to the Buchsenmacher air model for summer, 3 buckles is better than 1 I say.



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Yeah, we already saw your new 3 buckle gay apparel Stevie. I'm surprised that there is no nail polish on your toenails though. I suppose the nail salons in Colorado are still shut down due to Covid19 restrictions, or you'd be going whole hog with your transvestite look. Your feet are sure rather dainty and feminine though... only spanning less than two of those 5/4" deck boards. Speaking of your deck, did you build that too? I figure you did, considering some of the gaps between the boards are big enough to throw a live cat through.

With skills like that, it isn't surprising that you still don't see that the damage to this Winchester shotgun barrel goes 360 degrees around the circumference of the barrel. And it has already been discussed and established by photos that there is more than one ring of damage. However, you still want us to believe that some fool would continue to rotate an asymmetric anvil of a hydraulic dent raising tool, and also continue to make bulges where there was an extremely unlikely 360 degree series of dents. Perhaps you are seeing smoke rings from your bong again.

But you keep right on grasping at straws, and keep telling us about how you are so busy doing gunsmithing jobs that you have all day to post examples of your ignorance here.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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Ok folks, enough of that. Having different opinions to offer to those of us who aren't all that well versed on these topics is great. But I didn't sign on to this forum to "hear" a squabble like this. Take a break and cool off!

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Results are in, and I found some additional information

From a 1934 Winchester salesman’s manual reproduced in The Rifleman’s Rifle Winchester's Model 70, p.23:
“Proof Steel. Winchester pioneered the alloy steel field by the production of heat treated nickel steel barrels thirty years ago…”
“Two or three years ago our metallurgists together with those of one of the greatest steel companies in the country, produced a new alloy. This new alloy was a chrome molybdenum steel which was capable of being tempered to a greater strength and resistance to wear, and still be in a machinable state, than any other alloy yet discovered.”
“Winchester decided to coin the name ‘Winchester Proof-steel’ which would be Winchester’s guarantee that it would be the finest alloy steel known at the time.”

The Winchester Model 12 owner’s manual in the 1960s state “Only the finest of gun steels-WINCHESTER Proof (Chrome Molybdenum) Steel-is used in the manufacture of your Model 12.”





Winchester catalogs in the 70s state Proof Steel was “cold forged Chrome Molybdenum”.

Winchester's Finest The Model 21 by Ned Schwing states Chrome Molybdenum alloy.

Mike Hunter has stated specifically 4140.

THIS 1937 Model 12 “Winchester Proof Steel” barrel is non-standard (low chromium and slightly high molybdenum) AISI 4135 medium carbon low alloy steel
Carbon – .34% (0.33 - 0.38)
Manganese - .76% (0.7 - .9)
Chromium - .62% (0.8 - 1.1)
Molybdenum - .30% (0.15 - 0.25)
Nickel - .09% (< .01)

Yield strength – 79,500 psi
Ultimate tensile strength – 107,000 psi
% elongation – 12
(Industrial standard for non-heat-treated 4135: Yield – 75,000; Ultimate – 110,000 psi. 4135 may be heat treated to much higher strength.)

I recognize that Winchester over the years may have specified 4140.
And BTW I was not able to find a definitive statement as to which company made 1930s "Winchester Proof Steel"

I also have no explanation for the internal barrel defects, the ring bulge, and the crack.

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Thanks for the data point Drew.

Here is an interesting series of articles about the history of alloy steels. It puts some names and faces to terms we've all run across reading about alloys and heat treating. Part one is easy to find on the net if you're interested.

https://nanopdf.com/download/metallurgy-lane-the-history-of-alloy-steels-part-ii_pdf

This era, the 1920's and 30's, marked the transition of steel making from an art to a science. My dad, who had a hand in making the stuff for Mr. Ford always said that before about 1930 steel was made pretty much by the seat of the pants.

Winchester would no more pay for steel that had properties not actually needed for the task at hand than would any other large profit making company, advertising claims notwithstanding.

There's something to be said for the idea that the change from 'nickel steel' to 'Winchester Proof Steel' was more of a cost saving measure than anything.

General Guy Drewry gained notoriety during WW2 for optimizing the steels used in war production minimizing waste of alloying metals.

My view is that Winchester Proof Steel is just a trademark and applied to whatever did the job the best for a particular application. 'Best' also figures in cost, and cost is not limited to just the price of the raw material. Tooling wear, ease of finishing, etc. figure in.

Is the steel used for a shotgun barrel also used for the barrel of a 300 Win Mag? They both get the trademark stamp.


BTW: The assay shows .09% Ni, which is pretty close to .1% (instead of <.01%) and not negligible. 4135 maybe, but with added Ni.


"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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