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#573709 - 06/13/20 01:05 PM Winchester Proof Steel
Drew Hause Offline
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Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 8044
Loc: AZ but dreaming of KS
Gloria a Dios I have been gifted a cracked M12 Winchester Proof Steel barrel

Here is the previous thread regarding Winchester steels
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=561800&page=1

Most sources state that Proof Steel was 4140 (including Mike Hunter and Ned Schwing)
Winchester catalogs in the 70s state Proof Steel was “cold forged Chrome Molybdenum”.

Other internet sources however state “nickel-chrome-moly alloy steel”.



There is a '37' at the breech - does this mean 1937 DOM?

The crack at 17". There is a slight ring bulge there. The MWT is an impressive .072"! Bore is .732".



The barrel has (presumably) been cut to 25 1/2" and threaded for a choke device/Cutts?

I couldn't quite capture the marks on the external surface opposite the crack. Possibly where someone tried to pound down a bulge?



And THIS is the bore at the site of the crack. I could not get the camera to focus on what appears to be 2 annular rings/dents?





I would very much appreciate the thoughts of those here.
Is it possible that someone tried to use a hydraulic dent raiser, bulged and cracked the barrel, then tried to pound down the bulge??

So the muzzle end segment is off to METL next week and we will KNOW if Winchester Proof Steel is 4140!

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#573711 - 06/13/20 01:33 PM Re: Winchester Proof Steel [Re: Drew Hause]
craigd Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 6859
Just conversation Doc Drew. If the scenario started with a dent, what might create apparent multiple dents, around the circumference, at a common distance down the bore? Maybe, it was fired with a obstruction, unrelated but possibly a reason why it ended up so short?

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#573712 - 06/13/20 01:39 PM Re: Winchester Proof Steel [Re: Drew Hause]
Drew Hause Offline
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Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 8044
Loc: AZ but dreaming of KS
I didn't explain that very well. The annular dents now evident in the bore are outward from the bore, as if a pilot or hydraulic dent raiser was expanded.

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#573716 - 06/13/20 03:30 PM Re: Winchester Proof Steel [Re: Drew Hause]
keith Offline
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Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 10200
The anvil of a hydraulic dent raiser would only exert force upon a small portion of the circumference. But you might consider the possibility of a different type of hydraulic forces at play. I'll toss out the THEORY that this damage could be the result of an excessive amount of grease or heavy oil in the bore when it was fired. I see a less prominent annular ring bulge beyond the two larger rings, so this might be an extreme example of rivveling.
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#573718 - 06/13/20 07:05 PM Re: Winchester Proof Steel [Re: Drew Hause]
jlb Offline
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Registered: 01/16/16
Posts: 79
Loc: New Mexico
What is rivveling?

jlb

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#573722 - 06/13/20 07:58 PM Re: Winchester Proof Steel [Re: Drew Hause]
Drew Hause Offline
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Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 8044
Loc: AZ but dreaming of KS
I posted a couple of slightly better images.

Rivveling - A series of slight ring-bulges or wrinkles
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/clay-shooting/20190403/281827170117384

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#573723 - 06/13/20 08:27 PM Re: Winchester Proof Steel [Re: Drew Hause]
Shotgunjones Offline
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Registered: 02/16/03
Posts: 3802
Regardless how your assay turns out Drew, you aren't going to prove anything with a sample size of one.

I thought it was generally agreed that the WP stamp simply indicated that the steel used in the product so stamped was, in the opinion of Winchester, simply the 'best' steel for the application.

'Winchester Proof' was used on a great many products over many, many, years it's difficult to imagine it represents a particular alloy.
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#573724 - 06/13/20 09:09 PM Re: Winchester Proof Steel [Re: Drew Hause]
bczrx Offline
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Registered: 07/02/17
Posts: 39
Loc: South San Joaquin Valley, CA
Shotgunjones-

I agree that statistical methodology requires multiple samples to provide statistically significant findings that can be used to speak authoritatively about the object [or subject, or group, or event] being evaluated.

That said, I also thoroughly believe that a scientific examination of a sample of one gives more insight than an examination of zero- which allows us to speculate without any shred of evidence to point in any direction.

I have never poured steel. I don't know how often the alloy of a steel firearm barrel is changed, while it keeps the same name.

It seems just as likely to me that they would keep a formulation that began with them clearly demonstrating that it was able to digest the 'blue pill' loads without a hiccup.

After such thorough testing to proof how strong it was, it seems that they would try to keep the same alloy, so that the barrel would stay as strong.

But, again- I am just guessing from a sample of zero.

Does anyone know one way or the other if the 37 refers to the year made?

I seem to remember reading that elsewhere as well.

As an owner of more than one Model 12, I am definitely interested in the outcome of this.

Even if I understand that the sample of one doesn't mean EVERY barrel is exactly the same- it gives more info than it did before.

Just need to find more donor barrels...


Edited by bczrx (06/13/20 09:09 PM)
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#573725 - 06/13/20 09:51 PM Re: Winchester Proof Steel [Re: bczrx]
craigd Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 6859
Originally Posted By: bczrx
....I also thoroughly believe that a scientific examination of a sample of one gives more insight than an examination of zero- which allows us to speculate without any shred of evidence to point in any direction....

It's not related to metallurgy, but there is some thought that a single firearm or barrel failure can be analyzed for the purposes of arriving at a definitive conclusion. But, speculating can be interesting?

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#573728 - 06/13/20 11:34 PM Re: Winchester Proof Steel [Re: Drew Hause]
Shotgunjones Offline
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Registered: 02/16/03
Posts: 3802
As far as why it cracked, I think you're on the right track about a bulge being hammered out and the material becoming work hardened.

This one fared better than the one my pal blew up on New Years Eve 40 years ago. Old shells, a dud, he racked in a new one with the usual results. It split down the side. Proof Steel, just not idiot proof.
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