doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Rheinmetall

I picked up this Rheinmetall 12 gauge. The gun has 28 1/2" barrels and still has the 2 9/16" chambers. I assume 535 means made May of 1935? I know Rheinmetall did and still does manufacture military weapons/defence systems. I can find very little on civilian arms and what I did find deals with semi-auto shotguns. Can anyone give me any history on their double barrels. What years did they produce them? Were they sourced from someone else and just their name put on them?

LOL, Brian, do you ever see a gun you don't buy? Hahaha.

Looks interesting. Will be following this.

Nah. I got rid of a bunch of guns so I gotta replace some of them!

Reheinische Metallwaren und Maschinenfabrik / Rheinmetall-Borsig was founded by Heinrich Ehrhardt in 1899 and that was in D�sseldorf.

A similar concern was founded in S�mmerda in 1901, which was a specialist for tubes and probably the source for the Rheimetall trademarked tubes.

Is there a worn mark near the script L on the lower rib? I have seen a similar script L on many of Sauer's offerings. More than likely a Langenhan mechanic.

It passed thru the Zella - Mehlis proof facility in September of 1921 being Nr. 535 for the month of September.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

So it's older than I thought. I can't really make out other marks but I included another pic of the bottom of the barrels. What is EHRHARDT LAUF?

Heinrich Ehrhardt had a vessel type patent where he like Whitworth made tubes. All the tube with the encircled square were made by this technique. I think they supplied a lot of tubes to the German War Machine.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Looks to be a very nice A&D Body Action platform. Anything on the buttplate?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Nothing on the buttplate.

>>Heinrich August Theodor Ehrhardt was born in 1840 to simple beginnings, and retired & expired(1928), in Zella Saint Blasii where in 1866 he founded his first firm which faltered. It was then that he moved to Düsseldorf where he founded the Rhinish Metal Works Rheinmetall and made many wares including corkscrews. He real 1st success was a new technique of bullet making where he fabricated 8x57I steel jacked bullets for the M88. He then went on to bigger and better bullets, and tubes, for artillery pieces in the last decade of the 19th Century. It was then that he developed his tube making process and it has been pointed out to me that the square bolt/rod in the round hole, which can be seen in the diagram between the signatures in the signature block, became his trademark. Page 5 beside "a" & "b": http://www.google.com/patents?id=S2x2AAA...;q=&f=false <<

US495245A

https://patents.google.com/patent/US495245


https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb...true#Post184388

This example is stamped Rheinmetall Abteilung S�mmerda.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

>>In 1840, Johann Nikolaus von Dreyse invented the needle gun and a firearms factory was founded in the town. In 1919 the Rheinmetall company took over the factory, later called Rheinmetall-Borsig, at first to produce automotive parts. Initially it concentrated with only little success on carburettors, then in 1925 an ambitious new manager, the engineer Fritz Faudi, took over and a new type of cardan joint was developed, which became extremely popular. The Rheinmetall-Faudi system was a well-known name, and the S�mmerda works were the largest producer in Germany.

In April 1921 the factory returned to arms production, going against the post-war regulations which banned it from producing fuses. From October 1922 the factory produced the total quantity of fuses allowed in Germany by the Allies and also began producing the new MG30 machine gun under the direction of Louis Schmeisser.<<

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B6mmerda - copy & paste

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Too Immanuel Meffert seemed to be a big fan of Rheinmetall vessels as many of their offerings are fitted w/ Ehrhardt Lauf. Maybe there was a link there directly or thru R�merwerk / R�mer & Compagnie / R�hmer und Compagnie:

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/archives/romerwerk-the-becker-revolving-shotgun/

I can't say there was a link but I am mining heavily in that direction.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Too Meffert had some novel tube advancement referred to as >>Radialstahll�ufe<< and for the moment I am not sure if that meant feature of tube making?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Raimey. Lots of interesting information. The tube set on my gun still ring nice and clear. Fairly light as well.

Possibly rotary or spin casting.
I have done it with bronze but not steel.
Should possible

Neat looking gun. Looks a lot like my 1934 Sauer.

Had it out this afternoon and tried it out. Functioned perfectly!

Good to hear Brian. Hope it works well for you in the fall. Trying to arrange to spend a few days at Delta this year. We�ll see.

Thanks to Wolfgang's efforts, we now know Ehrhardt concern rolled out 7k-8k barrels a month. Ehrhardt's process was in fact that of one making tubes by a radial process or �Radialstahll�ufe".

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

So when the term �Radialstahll�ufe", the process by which Ehrhardt made tubes, 7k to 8k per month, is associated with Meffert, it actually points indirectly to Ehrhardt. I have seen more Ehrhardt tubes on Meffert offerings that any other.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

And yet again Wolfgang comes up w/ another fantastic find:

Alleinige Verwertung
Der Gewehrlauf-Marke
R.O.M.(Where the O is the Ehrhardt Trademark)
Radial-Stahl-Rohr-Extra Qual
(Patent Ehrhardt)

Verbiage from a Postkard from 1913.

Which notes that Meffert is the Sole outlet for Ehrhardt patented steel tubes.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Interesting process on tube making and the connection to Meffert.
That was a fair amount of tubes being rolled out.

Yes, those were all rifle & shotgun tubes. They made many other like heavy mortar & I'm sure tank barrels. But the sporting arm barrels were noted as being much stronger than the wound or coiled damascus barrels/pattern welded tubes.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Yes, I could see that if I am correct in thinking that the radial process involved forming the tubes under hydraulic pressure?

Below is a forced translation:

>>....the Ehrhardt pressing process using special steel is particularly suitable for the manufacture of hunting and military rifle barrels. After the ingot is pierced, the barrels are given several passes, pass through a conical rolling mill and are ground to exact calibre. In the conical rolling mill, the cylindrical barrels are not only given a tapering shape, but the shell material is also spiralled along its longitudinal axis......<<

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Ah, that explains the process more clearly. Thanks.

Not sure that the method is fully clear, but it points in a general direction.

>>In Deutschland wurde eine �hnliche Art der
Rohrerzeugung zuerst im Jahre 1892 von der
Rheinischen Metallwaren- und Maschinenfabrik in
D�sseldorf ausgef�hrt, nachdem der Hauptinhaber
dieser Firma (Geheimer Baurat Heinr. Ehrhardt, ein
auch sonst in der Rohrfabrikation mit hervorragenden
Verbesserungen und Erfindungen hervorgetretener
Geist, den Oberingenieur und Betriebsleiter Green
der vorgenannten Spiral Weld Tube Company in
East Orange nach Europa geholt hatte und dieser
mit dem deutschen Ingenieur Leybold eine Neu-
konstruktion der bekannten amerikanischen Maschine
vorgenommen hatte, deren Ausf�hrung die Maschinen-
fabrik Heinr. Ehrhardt in Zella �bernahm. <<

A bit of German for those few who have command & are following along. Interesting that it mentions a >>Spiral Weld Tube Company<<??

>>Weitere Einrichtungen und ArbeitsvorschlSge zur
Erzeugung von spiralgeschwei�ten Rohren sind in
Deutschland noch von Julius Wttstenh�fer (D. R. P.
Nr. 51069, 53532, 58163 usw.), Carl Kratz und
Julius Stra�mann (D. R. P. Nr. 63307) sowie von
Eduard Zimmermann (D. R. P. Nr. 65088) gemacht
worden. <<

Some advancements in Spiral Tube technology by Germans......

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

A re-post with a bit more info:

Alleinige Verwertung
Der Gewehrlauf-Marke
R.O.M.(Rheinischen Metallwaren- und Maschinenfabrik)
Radial-Stahl-Rohr-Extra Qual
(Patent Ehrhardt)

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

A bit more general info:

>>Ehrhardt'sches Pre�- und Ziehverfahren:

128 Patente wurden von ihm im Deutschen Reich registriert. Die 1891 patentierten Verfahren, die unter dem �Ehrhardt'schen Pre�- und Ziehverfahren� zur Fabrikation nahtloser Rohre bekannt wurden, werden heute noch in der Industrie angewendet. Bekannt machte ihn auch die Entwicklung des Rohrr�cklaufgesch�tzes. Die 7,5-cm-Ehrhardt Modell 04 Gebirgskanone, an deren Entwicklung und Produktion er ma�geblich beteiligt war, wurde nach ihm benannt.<<

By 1903, due to conflicts & disagreements with shareholders the adept inventor withdrew from some or all parts of his individual businesses.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I hit the translate site, lol. Interesting info on the tubes. Ehrhardt had quite a number of patents.

Yeah, here's an old thread on Heinrich August Theodor Erhardt tubes:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=177833

And his 1893(U.S. of A.) metal vessel fabrication patent:

Nr. 495245A

https://patents.google.com/patent/US495245#v=onepage&q=&f=false



Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Raimey

Glad to get a little of the Ehrhardt Lauf sand sorted. The idea began in the U.S. of A. @ the Sprial Weld Tube Company in East Orange near New York. They derived their idea from pattern welded tube technology( der Flintenl�ufe, der Damastl�ufe ). Then Ehrhardt imported the idea / technology to Zella Sankt Blasii & improved it.

>>......Die Fabrikation der gewundenen sogen. spiralgeschweissten Rohre hat ihre Anregung in der Anfertigung der Flintenl�ufe, der Damastl�ufe erhalten, welche aus Schweisseisen- und Puddelstahldraht gewunden, in Holzkohlenfeuer zur Schweisshitze gebracht und �ber einem Dorn durch einen Rohrhammer, einen schnellgehenden Schwanzhammer geschweisst wurden. Vom Jahre 1877 bis 1878 baute Roob eine Maschine, welche 1886 in Betrieb kam, ohne befriedigende Ergebnisse zu liefern. 1886 wurde in East Orange bei New-York von der Spiral-Weld-Tube Co. ein gr�sseres Werk zur Fabrikation spiralgeschweisster Rohre nach Roob's Verfahren angelegt.......<<

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Clarification II:

Alleinige Verwertung
Der Gewehrlauf-Marke
R.OM.-(Radialstahll�ufe - >>Trademark<< Meffert)
Radial-Stahl-Rohr-Extra Qual
(Patent Ehrhardt)

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Spiral Weld Tube Company East Orange, New Jersey

https://scripophily.net/spwetuconewj.html

https://books.google.com/books?id=5GfXIO...nge&f=false

Cheers,

Raimey
rse