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#569724 04/13/20 07:09 PM
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cable Offline OP
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got this a while back, and again the quarantine gives me time to look at things. it is 28 ga smooth bore, chambers measure 2.5" with my gauge. and under barrel was said to be a 22 hornet, and a hornet chambers easily. but I am a little spooked, after the drilling episode, and I can do a chamber cast if needed



beautiful lightweight little thing.

flip up rear sight and an unusual 'platform ' that may be for a scope...not like ones I have seen before:







and these are the markings:









what do you see?

Last edited by cable; 04/13/20 07:12 PM.

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Can you pleasure us with a better image of the above, specifically around the >>35 / 184<< area?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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cable Offline OP
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let me try right now


cable
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cable Offline OP
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hope this is better


cable
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I can imagine that it would be a light dandy gun. Very nice. I love guns that have wood running the full length.

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VERY NICE!

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cable,
There are 3 different cartridges based on the same or similar cases and this can be a little confusing, but there is no reason to get spooked over them. First was the 22 Winchester Center Fire, a black powder 22 caliber cartridge. Then the Germans adopted it , loaded it with smokeless powder and a jacketed bullet at a higher velocity; and named it 5.6x35R Vierling( it was used in the small caliber barrel of many 4 barrel guns). The third is the 22 hornet which was also developed from the 22WCF case , and loaded to even higher velocity than the Vierling, necessitating higher pressures. Because of the higher pressures, the rim on the Hornet was thickened to prevent use in older, weaker rifles. The Germans call it 22 Hornet, usually, but when written in the metric system, it is 5.6x36R Hornet. The markings on your rifle, indicate it was chambered for 5.6x35R Vierling( 5.4 is the bore[not groove or bullet] diameter, and the 35 is the case length, the "R" is not shown because it is obvious from the extractor). If it will close on a 22 Hornet cartridge, then the rim recess has been deepened ( a good many have been). You have a very nice and fun combination gun that would have been used as a Schoenzeitgewehr to control predators during the "off season" when game animals are having and raising young. You don't need to make a chamber cast, just see it will close easily, or bind on a Hornet case. You should also "slug" the bore since they often used smaller than .224" bullets( smaller bullets are available). I happen to have a sxs combination gun in 24 ga. and 5.6x35R Vierling. After adjusting rim thickness on 50 cases and ordering .223" bullets, I am able to load cartridges using my existing 22 Hornet loading dies and shell holder. I load it to about 2350 fps and have an awful lot of fun with it. Your gun would be the same, except you can find 28 ga. cheaper than 24 ga. and it will be easier to have a scope mounted on it. You are very lucky to have found it- enjoy.
Mike

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once again, I thank you ! just tried and it wont fully close on the standard 22 hornet round, so a little adaption is needed. is it better to modify cases, or would it be okay to have a gunsmith modify the gun?

do the European cases work without modification ?

also, what sort of scope arrangement works with this base? I have 2 drillings with claw mounts and one with dovetail type, but don't think I have seen this type before

I really appreciate your help !

Last edited by cable; 04/14/20 02:12 PM.

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cable,
I must admit I am prejudiced against rechambering these fine old guns and believe they should be preserved when possible( I'm a wildcatter on the other hand). It is not my gun, however, and as long as I insist on being the one that decides what happens to my guns, I have to say you have that right too. Alaska is full of 22 Hornets, but I doubt if there are very many 5.6x35Rs there. European 5.6x35R cases will work without modification, European Hornet cases will not. The 5.6x35R is pretty rare in Germany now and if cases can be found they may be Berdan primed. I load with two different size Berdan primers, but I'm not sure if you can find the size required for this cartridge. Thinning the Hornet rims from the back and deepening the primer pocket with a primer pocket uniformer is pretty quick and easy, and wipes the incorrect headstamp off at the same time. Thinning from the front would require making a spigot to locate and hold the cases to reach the front of the rim. To be efficient, you would need a lathe for either method. A lathe ( and mill) is a requirement of life any way. You can buy cases already modified, Bertram might make new ones, or you might have a machinist friend that would do them for you if you can't do it.
You should be able to have a set of "Tip off" rings modified to fit your base, if you can't find a set with the correct size dovetail. If you buy a set of extra high rings, there should be enough room to mill the bottoms off and cut the correct size dovetail and relocate the clamp. You would bump the front one against the buttress at the front of the base, and "stop" the rear one with the groove in the base.
The "mission" of the 5.6x35R has largely been taken over by the 22 Hornet, 22 Magnum Rim Fire, and 17 Rim Fire Magnum, so un-molested guns are getting harder and harder to find.
Mike

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I will look for someone selling modified cases. buffalo arms has some [ but is out of stock currently ] that are cases modified to be 22 wcf - those should be usable.

I don't have a lathe or the knowledge [ I am a physician and good with my hands but not in this manner ]

I do have a friend with a lathe, and once modified the cases should last quite a while [ I really would like to make loads that are ballistic equivalent of 22 magnum at most ]

I was wondering it tip off mounts would work and I do have a lot of those [ they are in anchorage, and I am in isolation out here at the lake in the valley.. but maybe soon I can go to town and look for them ]

thanks again, you are knowledgeable and logical and practical
and that is the kind of advice I needed.


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Ford, what is the difference between the cases of 32-20/25-20 & the subject cartridge case? I often shoot a 25-20 Win in a single shot Husky and have found the VV 3N37 powder to be most useful.


Cheers,

Raimey
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Raimey,
Off the "top of my head", the 22WCF/5.6x35R/ 22 Hornet case head is about .298" in diameter, whereas the 25-20/32-20/.218 Bee is about .354" at the head. It is likely that VV 3N37 would be useful in the 5.6x35R Vierling. I like Lil Gun, but Unique, 2400, H110, and 296 would also. For cast bullet reduced loads, Bullseye should be useful. I'll bet your boys get a kick out of that 25-20, now that the schools are shut down.
Mike

Last edited by Der Ami; 04/15/20 10:43 AM. Reason: correct head size
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You well know Ford as I am loading metallic cartridges & we are purchasing scattergun cartridges thru >>Drive Thru<< gunshops. A first for me.


Cheers,

Raimey
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A bit off the topic here, but when you convert the readily available 32-20 to 25-20 you must proceed at a slow, cautious pace to prevent from damaging the neck.

Cheers,

Raimey
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cable,
The Buffalo Arms cases would be perfectly useable, they are a trusted source of hard to find cases and bullets.
If you had a lathe and the desire, there is no doubt you would quickly gain the knowledge to use it.
If you had your friend make up 50 cases, they should last the rest of your life; if you take care of them and are careful seating the bullets( the Hornet is infamous for buckling necks in seating the bullets). There is no doubt it will be easy to load ammo that is the ballistic equivalent of 22 magnum. If you use cast bullets, you should be easily able to duplicate 22 WRF or 22 LR ballistics. The case is so small that it is easy to "load it down" with out any filler, such as Kapok or Dacron and a wide range of powders would be useful( see above comment to Raimey).
Mike

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Raimey,
You could make up for getting off topic by researching Halang und Bachner- Suhl for cable ( see his earlier thread on this forum).

The problem with forming 25-20 cases is there aren't any intermediate calibers between it and 32-20, dies from which would be useful. You might find it helpful to size first in the 32-20 FL die, using a 22 Hornet shell holder to push the case all the way into the die and knock it out with a punch( be sure to remove the expander assy. first). Then size it carefully in the 25-20 seating die, before sizing it in the FL 25-20 die. It seems like I remember you buying a 6.5x40R ( was marked 6.3x40)at a B'ham gunshow. If you have dies for it, they may help with the 25-20. They would taper the case and you could fireform the shoulder( easier)rather than mechanically forming it.
Mike

Last edited by Der Ami; 04/15/20 11:40 AM.
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Meanwhile, back at the O/U - that is one beautiful little combo and well worth any effort to see it entirely functional again!

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when this isolation stuff winds down I will ask my friend to turn down some cases for me. I like the idea of loading it well down and making a super small game gun.

thanks again


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got some .22 WCF cases from buffalo arms, used the .222 PPI jacketed bullets and 9.6 gr 4198.

finally got to try these last week. Bingo !! very accurate [ three shots in one hole at 25 yds on first try ! ]

and shoots exactly to point of aim of the original sights !!
[
thanks to all who helped me get to this point !

Last edited by cable; 06/16/21 02:37 PM.

cable
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